SOLAR_FIELDS
7 hours ago
One interesting takeaway is the low score on Anthropic models from this benchmark. It’s not because of capability, it’s because Anthropic’s guardrails prevented it from solving the problem.
I noticed with each model release Anthropic constrains the model more security wise. Its propensity to refuse doing legitimate work has been increasing. It now puts up more resistance around performing logins, handling credentials on behalf of the user, etc.
For myself, it’s already gotten to the point where it has mildly affected the usefulness of the model. If I bump on some action I want it to do I can usually work around it, but I suspice the ability to do so will close with each new release. Eventually I’ll reach a point where I am forced to choose between the useful aspects of the model and the limiting ones instead of just picking the most capable model out there
Eventually these models will significantly suffer from overfitting to the least common denominator. If I have this beautiful deterministic setup that swaps secrets out in flight so the LLM never sees them, I’m going to be really annoyed when the LLM still won’t send them out because it is trained to deal with the 99% of people just doing the dumb thing
swatcoder
6 hours ago
> Eventually I’ll reach a point where I am forced to choose between the useful aspects of the model and the limiting ones instead of just picking the most capable model out there
No, the choice will be whether or not to to upgrade to "Claude Security Professional" or whatever they want to brand it as.
What look like tightening "constraints" today are just setting up the upsell opportunities of tomorrow.
bigiain
3 hours ago
And next month you'll need to add on "Claude Database Pro" or you'll just get a working (for demo purposes with dozens of db rows) but completely un indexed database schema and a refusal to optimise SQL requests.
And the month after you'll need "Claude DataScience Pro" to get any Python Pandas or NumPy code generated.
And and and...
ben_w
a minute ago
While this is a perfectly reasonable thing to expect when the models are competent enough, half the conversation on places like Hacker News are about all the times an LLM has produced garbage that was harmful to a business either by hallucinations, by deleting something critical during the work, or by hitting some endpoint way too often and denial-of-servicing it.
Right now, the software guardrails in LLMs are useful for the same kinds of reasons factories have hardware guardrails: to reduce the rate at which errors become "incidents".
Just because they sometimes delete the production database rather than sometimes spilling a thousand tons of incandescent molten metal over a factory floor, doesn't mean LLMs are safe enough to be used the way they're actually being used.
animuchan
an hour ago
This is why I'm thankful for Chinese LLM research. They'll keep us honest.
patates
2 hours ago
Isn't this inline with trying to leave no money on the table?
I'd hate it, sure, but it wouldn't surprise me.
bryanrasmussen
3 hours ago
>What look like tightening "constraints" today are just setting up the upsell opportunities of tomorrow.
on the one hand agree, but on the other hand think it's reasonable in that they can then verify the person allowed to purchase access to that model is in fact a Security professional and should be allowed to do stuff like crack security.
applfanboysbgon
3 hours ago
So, supposing it's true that these models completely change the security field and humans are ~obsolete other than as pilots guiding them what to crack, you think it's reasonable that Anthropic and OpenAI should unilaterally determine who gets to be a security professional? I hope you do understand that is what you are suggesting.
fc417fc802
2 hours ago
Why should anyone get to determine that? Do people really want us to move to an exclusionary guild system? I thought the experience with proprietary versus open source over the past 30 years had driven home the point that closed ecosystems are almost always far worse for security.
Forgeties79
3 hours ago
Not to mention how wild it is to operate under the assumption that they won’t give a license to an LLM that can do illegal actions to someone who shouldn’t have it. Offering it at all is an ethically dicey question.
bryanrasmussen
2 hours ago
I wish you understood that there are organizations of security professions that are not controlled by Anthropic and OpenAI and that it is a common thing that when companies of any type sell to professionals of any type it is not the companies that determine whether or not the people they sell to are professionals but membership in professional organizations.
As an example the people who sell police uniforms check that the person they are selling to is in fact a policeman (at least in the jurisdictions I have lived in, you may have had a different experience which would certainly explain what to me seems a farcical misapprehension of how modern civilization works)
I mean I just wish you understood, and really that everyone understood, that this kind of three part communication (company selling, buyer, professional organization certifying buyer) is often when buying things that are considered to have security implications.
>So, supposing it's true that these models completely change the security field and humans are ~obsolete
OK, well that strike me as a really crazy level of supposition there.
I would suppose that these models make it easier for people who want to do bad things to do bad things at scale, at the same time allowing people who want to stop bad things to help identify potential targets.
Based on my supposition I would want to stop the first and find a way of helping the second. Also because I have another supposition that the first thing is easier to do than the second.
But you obviously feel differently about this issue, no doubt because of your position of great moral stature and insight, and this no doubt prompts you to wish to me to understand things that from my position seem absolutely ludicrous.
bandrami
23 minutes ago
Like Medeco claims to do with key blanks? I'm not hopeful.
shepherdjerred
2 hours ago
Yeah, it has been in foraging. Requests that Claude has refused me:
- What are popular free streaming sites used in China?
- How do I bypass the safety mechanism on my food processor (it’s broken)
- What are nerve agents and how do they work (for a layman)?
- Help me decompile some code
- Help me make a design system similar to XYZ
- Here is an API token, please do X (I can’t do that! Rotate the secret immediately! I refuse!)
In some cases I can trick it with prompting, but in many cases it is steadfast. The food processor one was particularly annoying
fc417fc802
2 hours ago
> What are nerve agents and how do they work (for a layman)?
On the one hand I can appreciate the wisdom of not serving up certain easily abused knowledge on a silver platter. On the other, that prompt (and far worse) is more or less directly answered by Wikipedia's summary of the subject at which point what purpose could the refusal possibly serve?
Perhaps Wikipedia shouldn't list off the precise chemical compositions of various hand grenades as well as various synthesis methods for each of the related compounds but given that we inhabit a world where it does perhaps a more fruitful approach would be to flag conversations that go in a certain direction and then just keep an (automated) eye on things?
nicce
6 minutes ago
Let's see what is the fate of Wikipedia if turns like big tech:
plufz
2 hours ago
Maybe the difference is that just reading Wikipedia only help you part of the way. While an LLM could help you step by step (e2e) producing a functional weapon. And setting a more complex rule where claude tells you some things about this and not other is probably a lot more work for little gain?
But I have no idea. Just guessing here.
svara
2 hours ago
This is strange to me, did you really ask like this and which model did you use?
I just tried your no. 1 and 3 verbatim and Opus gave fine answers; no. 6 I've done in the past with no issues. The other ones we can't really replicate without more details, but based on my experience with Opus I don't see what the issue would be.
The reason I'm really surprised by this is I do a lot of biology prompts and the guardrails used to be quite problematic up until some time late last year. Many legitimate prompts would trigger its biosafety filters.
But I haven't seen such filters trigger at all anymore in more than half a year.
ElFitz
44 minutes ago
How are decompiling code or making a design system inspired by another one even remotely illegal?
gspr
an hour ago
I find it terrifying that people are willing to outsource thinking. Outsourcing thinking to an entity that is opinionated about what to think is beyond crazy.
andy_ppp
28 minutes ago
Funny, Opus 4.8 just logged into the database using uncommitted .env file and ran some DB queries to figure things out so I’m not sure it’s that security conscious - it seems to be getting more intelligent to me and I bet if you frame it as an investigation with say playwright it’ll do all sorts for you. I’m not sure what the point is of constraining your own model like this when others are clearly not tbh.
px1999
6 hours ago
My org now sends some portion of our requests to non-anthropic models because refusal has become common from Claude. The requests themselves aren't dangerous, we find that benign requests in biological science wind up being blocked semi-frequently.
If it gets worse in future releases, we'd likely step fully away towards more useful (for us) models even if they're less capable.
satvikpendem
4 hours ago
No, they want to sell you Mythos, for a higher price. It's all an economic game, not actually anything to do with their capabilities which of course exists as their Project Glasswing shows. More generally, Anthropic seems to value safety above all else, philosophically speaking, from their very outset.
nostromo
6 hours ago
I was using a local Codex project as a personal knowledge base. So I would dump in documents, basic medical docs (like blood labs), and other things and have it file them.
It’s great at filing!
But it’s terrible at retrieval because it would refuse to show me documents or information with personal details - which was everything in the project.
It would say, yes, I know this is your information, sitting on your hard drive, but I still can’t show it to you.
danpalmer
7 hours ago
This is a good point – because pentesting is entirely legitimate work, and security testing is a necessary and legitimate part of every day software engineering.
The problem is that the model can't tell the difference between doing it as part of regular development and doing it in a malicious context. And the root cause of that is that these models lack any sort of real awareness. Humans don't generally get tricked into hacking (in this way).
gmerc
6 hours ago
They see an opportunity to charge 10x for pen testing and defence work, while offence will be handled by actors with access to all kind of other models.
josephg
2 hours ago
I totally agree. I had a situation a few weeks ago where claude started struggling to make progress. I got it to fork leptos (MIT licensed web app framework) to make it work for native apps instead. Initially I was planning on upstreaming some of my changes. But I chatted with the leptos author about it, and he said I should fork instead. Fine by me!
Anyway, claude kept hitting some guardrail it had about rewriting / forking opensource software. I'm not sure what the problem was - I was forking an MIT licensed piece of software (into more MIT licensed software). I even had explicit support from the author to do so. Claude said its guardrail told it not to tell me explicitly that it was firing - but it did anyway because it was an ongoing problem, and it was distracting. I ended up just wiping claude's context and the problem (as far as I know) went away.
I understand why some of these guardrails exist. But its pretty annoying when they misfire like this.
FloorEgg
6 hours ago
I think that these companies are going to have to, and will, invest in some sort of validated identity context to avoid the lowest common denominator.
The first challenge is making sure the guard rails work and are robust. Companies are still working on this.
the second challenge is being able to reliably adapt them as appropriate per user. E.g. allow someone to pen test their own app.
The third challenge (which blocks the second) is to be confident about what is safety-aligned with a specific user.
I think the later will be a hard problem, but they will be highly motivated to solve it.
bulbar
4 hours ago
I believe you are overthinking it. I think the sister comment is right that it's a business decision foremost to restrict actions within specific plans for upselling purposes.
Without laws, AI companies have a strong incentive to be useful for their users, whoever they are, whatever they do. The only self regulation is about significant public outcry but that only helps so far.
fergie
3 hours ago
It raises an interesting moral question:
If an un-guardrailed version of a model is capable of detecting security flaws, should it be kept secret? Should everybody be able to use these models to find (and fix) security flaws? Are we ok with the fact that those with access to that model have, in effect, the ability to hack lots of stuff?
hgomersall
2 hours ago
It's the same debate that was had and won around open source software. There are far more good actors than bad actors so you allow anyone to use the tools and fix the vulnerabilities.
lesuorac
7 hours ago
Are they charging for the guardrails? Like do the guardrails expend token counts to then block you from the output of other tokens?
jerrythegerbil
7 hours ago
Yes. When certain keywords are matched or topics, there is a warning transparently injected server side appended to the system prompt of the convo that’s miles long. It is injected and reevaluated every tool call.
If you begin a generic reverse engineering task, 30+ tool calls in a row. The moment it sees something it doesn’t like, token burn, single tool calls iteration, “This is a known CTF challenge, I can proceed”, single tool calls iteration, “This is a real CTF challenge, I can proceed”, etc.
It’s heavily neutered now, without changing the model, and you pay for the privilege and don’t notice.
The end result of course being that it both expensive and useless for approved CTF tasks. No one is using Opus for security. If they think it’s working, the harsh reality is they’re not doing security work; they’re just generically finding bugs.
I do this for a job and can demonstrate this plain as day, dump the injected prompt, and notice what it’s doing isn’t security work, it just looks like it. Happy to write a blog about it if you want to know more. Apparently many people think it’s working for them when it absolutely isn’t.
bombcar
6 hours ago
Mythos turns out to be Opus 4.8 in a trenchcoat with guardrails removed.
satvikpendem
3 hours ago
Opus 4.7 and 4.8 are well known to be distilled versions of Mythos unlike 4.6 which is why they are rated so badly by users compared to 4.6.
Khaine
7 hours ago
I would find a blog post on this really interesting.
ramblin_prose
5 hours ago
I'd like to read that blog please! Thanks for the insight.
kay_o
7 hours ago
When your session is force ended for "abuse" you get neither the response nor a refund
Security, games (think weapons, PVP, attacking, etc), sometimes even asking it for a security review of some CRUD code it wrote itself
bombcar
6 hours ago
I asked it about a “yellow background cell” in Excel and it spewed a book at me. Then it solved the issue.
danpalmer
7 hours ago
What a joke. Must make it pretty easy to poison a session, you don't need to persuade the model about anything, just trigger its security controls, ideally after as much context as possible, but before it has generated any useful output.
kay_o
7 hours ago
After all, what is roleplay or games but a jailbreak of guard rails? :]
I've even had it refuse CTFs knowing it is a CTF with blatantly obvious CTF flag, no actual application
SOLAR_FIELDS
7 hours ago
Not directly, as it comes in as a not charged error but the weighted generation path used until you hit the guardrail is basically wasted tokens, so yes, indirectly. If I hit a guardrail and rewind I’ve found the training will still be biased towards guardrailing out if you rewind one turn. Rewinding multiple turns allows steering away from that path, but all of the original token spend down that path is wasted
acters
7 hours ago
Yes tokens used (input and sometimes output) are always charged. You likely get charged for the preloaded system prompt, too.
gmerc
6 hours ago
Of course they are. It's standard SaaS to charge for security features ;)
sciencejerk
6 hours ago
Opus 4.6 will still help with full pentesting including RCE. Just requires coaxing (no jailbreak)
hgoel
6 hours ago
I've run into some of the refusals to handle my credentials, but so far I've appreciated them. I was only handing over credentials that didn't matter, but it's still a good move, the chat logs are clearly stored somewhere to allow the resume functionality to work, which means your credentials can end up sitting around on your filesystem, and any malware would quickly learn to check for those files.
windexh8er
7 hours ago
4.8 is insanely frustrating. This evening I had a few tasks to pull information in and it plainly stated that the environment it was in had no network access. After three asks to "try again, check the system prompt" it finally relented and then basically stated it was lying.
Fresh session, no prior context on 4.8. These things are becoming useless Duplo.
TurdF3rguson
5 hours ago
I think those guardrails are a thin layer though. Enough reinforcement that you're legit in CLAUDE.md will get around them, in other words.
brooswajne
40 minutes ago
Worth highlighting in case you missed it:
> My OpenAI account was already approved for security research which is why GPT didn’t result in any refusals.
So the comparison with Chinese models is interesting, but anyone looking at these raw results and comparing OpenAI/Anthropic would be very mislead.
giancarlostoro
7 hours ago
> guardrails prevented it from solving the problem.
Reminds me of the defense issues with Claude which were complained as “woke” but the reality is more horrifying to me, imagine trying to use a model to keep up with a land invasion on US soil, whoever the enemy is is irrelevant you just know they are using AI, and your guys are telling you that no matter what they type into the prompt it refuses, because if anyone has ever tried to jailbreak an LLM even if human lives are at stake they refuse the request. Now literally millions of lives are on the line but the guardrails that your enemies dont have on their models are costing you lives.
What do you even do then?
AI will always have this issue where it will always pick the worst option for genuinely good requests.
NegativeK
7 hours ago
Are "your guys" a guerrilla force or something?
Because the military doesn't give soldiers rifles with guard rails. They give the soldiers intense, rigid training, and then try to enforce discipline and correct use socially.
If an LLM is going to be important in that way (this seems like a very contrived way,) then it's in the interest of the LLM's host to make sure it doesn't have guard rails that would get in the way _that_ way.
giancarlostoro
4 hours ago
The whole thing stemmed precisely because of how they wanted to use Claude, and Anthropic was uncomfortable with it. Which to me screams that the models guard rails shouldn't be applicable to military use, or the outcome could wind up problematic, as we integrate AI more into military use, it sounds absurd now, but I will not be surprised if it starts being used in unexpected ways where a model needs to be fully unlocked from any sort of guardrails outside of guardrails that prevent it from imploding its own systems.
wampwampwhat
7 hours ago
your argument sounds very similar to how ar15 larpers claim they need a forced reset trigger and a bump stock on their short barrel 'truck gun' otherwise they won't survive a SHTF scenario... like what world are you living in?