I think this belongs on hacker news (and unflagged) mainly because of who Tim Bray is. Notably co-inventor of XML, worked on a bunch of web standards etc.
Whether you agree or disagree with non-US citizens coming to America to engage in the advancement of technology, the important thing is to have discourse on the topic. That is in line with aims and goals of this site. This story is much less politics and much more about the impact of social policy on technologists.
As a non-US citizen myself but who has lived there for some time, I find that having and expressing an opinion on things like this is difficult due to the danger of such retaliation mentioned during border crossings and my daily life.
It's pretty light on both content and logic. Plus the title is somewhat of clickbait. It should be titled "Declining to visit America". The provocative title here makes it seem like there's going to be some sort of meaningful, possibly interesting, content.
Instead, it's basically just political whining.
I think the title is appropriate and is probably meant as a double entendre. The US does seem to be declining in many ways. Personally, visiting the US under the present government just feels too risky, they seem really hostile to foreigners.
The whining you hear is you.
> I think this belongs on hacker news (and unflagged) mainly because of who Tim Bray is.
A vouch option for Flagged submissions would be appreciated. I wonder if it used to be there but was removed.
> A vouch option for Flagged submissions would be appreciated.
AFAIK, upvoting a flagged submission cancels out the flagging to some extent. I don’t know the internals of how this process works. I’ve upvoted the submission in an effort to get it unflagged (it still may not get to the front page or may rapidly drop down though).
I spoke to a few HNers who I know flagged this post. They mentioned that they flagged it because it goes against the HN guidelines - a holy grail of sorts - and that the post does not invite "curious discussion". When prompted, they mentioned they would much rather read about pro-Musk technological exploits than anything against the US.
there are tons of posts on HN that don't invite "curious discussion"
this is one that would actually invite curious discussion if some people weren't clutching onto their "God Bless America (We're #1!)" pearls quite so tightly
More and more I'm finding that the most interesting conversation about America isn't coming from Americans anymore.
There was a time where I was quite interested in listening to people from America talk about their fascinating and crazy sounding country, but as time goes on I find that to be much more repetitive and not insightful.
Now I'm more interested in what people from other countries have to say about America, and I find it fascinating how Americans online find this unsettling and sometimes get snippy about it really weird ways.
Sometimes I wonder what political threads on HN would be like if Americans weren't allowed to participate in them. For the people in the crowd who take things more literally in know this isn't possible, it's just an interesting thought experiment.
Would that result in more 'creative' conversation?
Maybe for a while until new patterns/tropes/memes were built up by the users that could comment on them. Maybe the issue with the political discussions that too often the people talking about them are too close to them, too immersed in them?
Can't believe this is flagged. As a USer, it is the letter I would advise anyone outside the US to write. It is the only rational response.
THIS IS NOT A PLACE OF HONOR.
My pieces usually get flagged. Presumably I have annoyed some of the wrong people.
I'd like to say that as an American to your north, I think you're right to not come? Things are weird here presently, so I suspect you probably made the right call for a wide variety of reasons.
But also, I tire of the nationalist rhetoric wherever I see it. I'm tired of this idea that countries are anything more than a shared historical hallucination, and that we're all somehow different from one another. Or as my father often put it, "we all bleed red and we all shit brown." I never chose to be born here, and because I am sick (through no fault of my own) so called tolerant countries wouldn't have me. So I am stuck here.
Regardless, I get why you didn't come, I can't say I blame you, but I also am sick of these damn countries ruining things. Perhaps we should abandon the idea entirely and replace it with the spirit of brotherhood and respect for one's fellow human.
Have you spent any serious time with other cultures? Yes, we all have the same colored blood and excrement, and we have a lot of similarities. Yet at the same time, we are very different. England's traditional dignity culture (the virtuous man can overlook slights) is very different than Africa's honor culture (honor is zero-sum, and you must fight to maintain it), for instance. Japanese values and American values are frequently opposite (Japan values group membership, America values individuality; Japan honors someone by setting them apart, America honors someone by engaging with them.)
In an ideal world we could celebrate each other's differences. But trying to get rid of conflict by getting rid of national borders is naive. Why are the borders where they are? Generally because those are ethno-cultural boundaries. Nations that encompass multiple ethno-cultural groups tend to be somewhat unstable: for instance, Yugoslavia broke up violently, and Iraq has conflict between the Kurds and the rest.
This is not a support of nationalism (although I encourage patriotism, which is different), but "countries are [nothing] more than a shared historical hallucination" is just incorrect.
I have spent a lot of time in other cultures, I’ve lived overseas as ann exchange student and speak 3 languages.
Countries are bullshit and the belief that people are that intrinsically different is silly. Go back to 1940 with that noise.
Good line to save for the epitaph shortlist.
Not really, it's pretty ridiculous. Unless you have a solid history of strongly supporting terrorist groups or plan to violate immigration law there's really no precedence to assume you would have any issues visiting the US. Literally millions of people do so each month without problems.
We here in America have Fox News that drums up scary boogeymen to keep people fearing liberal California. The rest of the world has their equivalents, but instead of crime in California, it’s “you will be shot on sight at the airport when you enter the US”.
I think you've misunderstood the idea. Tim Bray and the OP of this thread aren't afraid to visit the US; the key phrase used in the post is "as a matter of principle".
>there’s a significant risk of an extremely negative outcome. I have a family to support and really can’t afford that risk.
I can understand the principles and the bit of Canadian pride, but ultimately it's rather hyperbolic. Even on principle, the fact is Canada and the US are strong and long lasting allies with a very obvious power imbalance, and this sort of pouting over commentary is more fitting to members of an elementary school kickball team than a professional organization on the cutting edge of technology.
US and Canada are not strong allies anymore. They are former allies with ongoing hostility between them.
As an example, US walked away from joint defense board just few days ago.
Canadians on the internet point out that many American don't understand the severe damage Trump has done.
Your post is a great example for this.
> Can't believe this is flagged.
On Hacker News? I can. I'm surprised it got unflagged.
> As a USer, it is the letter I would advise anyone outside the US to write. It is the only rational response.
Seconded.
I'm a US citizen and fully support any person of any country that protests the Trump administration in any form.
Elections have consequences.
The election outcome itself was the consequence of gross, systemic failure throughout the entirety of the United States' citizenry, society, institutions, and government.
The best thing for the States to do at this point would be to hold a Constitutional Convention and dissolve the government of the United States as unfit for any purpose, after which their citizens can decide how they wish to proceed.
Have you seen countries without a government? The US government is definitely fit for purpose. It successfully keeps order, for one thing. The government in a representative government isn't the problem, the people are the problem. In this case we have an intransigent Left and an incompetent Right wanting not-Left. Both sides want to "win", and in that situation, everybody loses. I think the ancient Greeks called this "stasis", and if the polis couldn't get out of stasis, the state failed. I believe the failure modes were either getting conquered or getting a tyrant. But we could choose to work together.
Not an easy idea when about ten states have enough nuclear weapons to glass the earth.
Damn, a few years of Trump and your solution is to dissolve the US? Really?
That was essentially the advice given by Benjamin Franklin, although he suggested turning it off and then on again before a Despot appears otherwise it would be inevitable that a Despot would appear.
Ah, good old Benjamin "Fake News" Franklin, or should I say SILENCE DOGOOD.
Really.
Going back to the drawing board after watching some major issues break the country is how we got this constitution in the first (second) place. The founders clearly suggested this as an intentional pressure valve to avoid the terrible catastrophe that is civil war or the dissolution of the union.
When values diverge in such extreme ways (values, not politics or preferences) it is very hard to continue to see each other as fellow citizens working toward some shared future. Mix in severe inequality and a broken, corrupt justice system and there is a very real sense of impending escalation. With the failure of the judicial and legislative branches to control corruption, we might be risking everything by NOT trying to find new middle ground.
There was a pew research poll in March [0] showing half of Americans think people in the opposing political party are morally bad people, not just people with different views or priorities. People openly tell each other they are "ruining the country" over things like "should the US spend tax money helping illegal immigrants in any way" or "should trans people have the same rights as they were born with" or "should the government protect known pedophiles from consequences" or "should women have to put their life on the line carrying a rape pregnancy to full term" or "should there be investigations when protesters are shot and killed by immigration agents" or "should the president be above the law". Both sides think their take on these questions is the only reasonable one and anyone on the other side is either delusional or downright evil.
Last time values diverged until the breaking point was because a huge chunk of people were willing to die in order to keep owning other people and another huge chunk of people were willing to die to prevent it. The resulting war caused more American deaths than all the others combined. Despite this, plenty of people still proudly fly the rebel flag today.
Another continental Congress to reauthor (renegotiate?) the Union is a monumental undertaking that is extremely dangerous for the stability of the country so it shouldn't be considered lightly. Civil war is far worse though so hopefully we can collectively navigate our way back to calmer waters.
[0] https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2026/03/05/in-25-countr...
Even not participating in elections have consecuences, at least for proper democratic countries.
But in countries where participation is mandatory, at least you can say that most of the (national) negatively affected people got what they voted for.
For improper "democratic" countries where elections are rigged or participation is biased towards some population sectors in a way or another, they are not really elections by the population.
No, not this story.
This story is that of Netflix' Chaos Monkey attacking the state most rhetorically aligned/proud of The Rule Of Law and showing in myriad ways how absolutely hollow that pride was and how vulnerable The Law is.
Are these bugs that get fixed or...if that was The Last Election, maybe not.
Pushing an unpopular platform loss after loss also has consequencess.
As if the people who say that could name a single thing on the “platform”. Go on though, tell me about Magic Socialism or what the fuck ever.
yes and the results and actions taken after the Nov 6 US elections may undo some of the damage. But no other country will ever trust the foreign policy of the US no matter what happens.
> yes and the results and actions taken after the Nov 6 US elections may undo some of the damage
You're assuming that 1) the elections will actually occur on Nov 6, 2) the elections will be fair, and 3) that the winners of said elections would take action and actually enforce the rule of law.
I'm not confident in any of those.
It will be interesting to see what happens. Many are hoping that there is a very strong turn out for the Democrat's so that any rigging cannot over come it, but this sounds like fan fiction to me. That said Trump hitting Iran may be the single biggest blunder of his political career, media influence can only go so far when there is a direct impact on all prices and potential stock availability in the coming months.
Hopefully a lot of the fears don't pan out but we won't know until it gets closer.
I'm not saying that there aren't better options but both major parties are complicit in how the system is organised. The US electoral system gets ever more distorted with every minor adjustment in the hopes of swinging various seats in their favour and now it just looks ridiculous.
Never say never.
Germany seems to have recovered quite a lot of trust following World War 2, to provide an extreme example of bad foreign policy.
Do you think the US is going to have Nuremberg trials? Do you think there will be a deep national reckoning about what happened?
Never say never.
> Do you think there will be a deep national reckoning about what happened?
About half of the people I know who voted for Trump this past election have deep regrets.
Do they regret voting Republican, or do they regret voting for this particular Republican candidate?
"Deep regrets"
L-fucking-O-L
What did they expect?
I have regrets when I say something dumb or drive through an intersection on a not-quite-yellow light.
Innocent people, including children, are dead. Republicans have done irreparable harm to this country on every imaginable level: civil liberties, trade, global power, economics. Open and naked corruption is so off the charts it can only be described with comparisons to the post-Soviet era.
"Regret" is, quite frankly, insulting.
I hope they are suffering deeply for it. They got exactly what they voted for.
>Do you think there will be a deep national reckoning about what happened?
You're witnessing one. This is the national reckoning on the open borders the left implemented, and the anti-White/Asian/male moral panic that was DEI/wokeism.
they're also on the cusp of throwing it all away, again.
It is wild seeing the elctorial maps of Germany and you can almost exactly recreate the East-West split. Decades later and it is coming back to haunt them.
Tbf, the east/west split is the one part that wasn’t the Nazis’ fault unless indirectly as a consequence of starting and losing a second World War in a row.
Through selfless deeds, hard work and admitting their failures to the fullest, for generations till now. Somehow I don't see that happening easily with american ego
There is the military saying "Once is an accident, twice is an attack", this is how a lot of folks see it.
I think it is deeper, that these actions were taken at the top and a sizable amount of the people sided with them, that sends the message that the US cannot be trusted long term, it has become cultural. I get that it isnt a majority of people but it is big enough that it cannot be ignored.
"We cannot leave the security of Europe in the hands of voters in Wisconsin every four years."
Not trusting the Americans was a French thing ever since De Gaulle. It just took the rest of the Europeans 50 years after his death to pick up on it.
That is a brilliant line. And yes Emanuel Macron has been taking this treat seriously as he is very well versed on Da Gaulle.
He might not have the best domestic moves but when it comes to Geopolitics, he is all over it.
Really? Like Italy, Germany, Japan, etc can be trusted but after, I'm not even sure what exactly, the US is fully and forever untrustworthy??
This. Once bitten, twice shy
I don’t think November 6 is going to be a reprieve. They have rigged the system so much that I don’t think it’s actually possible for the Democrats to make a comeback.
Even if the Democrats do make a comeback, they have spent half a century demonstrating that they are an, at best, an inadequate counter to America's awful political tendencies.
I actually like what they have done in the past, they’re level headed and reasonable. What I can’t stand and it makes my blood boil that they are completely ineffective without a political mandate. It’s a bunch of career politician cowards that may do well when everything is by the book but they remain completely emasculated when it comes to getting their agenda through. The Republicans even without a mandate will shuck and jive their way into getting their way.
If they lose it will be because they don’t track unfavorabilty ratings for your democrats as much as they do the current admin. It’s not enough (for moderates) to just say you hate the other guy.
The thing is a lot of people hate the other guy. It’s just that all this rigging just means they’re going to be disenfranchised.
no one thought the consequences would include giving 1.8 billion dollars of American taxes to the people who tried to violently overthrow the government and to those who are successfully leading a bloodless coupe.
Well, most people, obviously.
Serious questions:
1) I use "socials" anonymously. Have anon accounts on X, IG, FB. If asked to disclose them at the border (am US citizen, but it's happening to them too), do I disclose the anon accounts?
2) Nothing too controversial in my "socials" (I'm careful), but there's still stuff there that could embarrass me (e.g. mocking or abusing people on X). What would happen if I scrubbed my socials before a trip? Would they be able to find out that I scrubbed, and then construe something about me?
3) Relatedly, is there a recommended way to scrub one's socials?
4) Is something like HN considered part of "socials"? I assume Reddit is. So HN must be too? I've had multiple accounts on HN over the years (been serially banned until I stopped leaving controversial comments). What am I expected to do in such an instance? Do I disclose all the HN accounts?
5) Relatedly, I have multiple X accounts (squatting on usernames). Do I disclose all the accounts?
No, if they ask just give them the handle of any accounts that are currently on your phone. Just remove anything from your phone or computer if you think it might be an issue, like if you are sharing ISIS videos and stuff. As a citizen you don't have to do anything, but if they ask and you don't let them look at a device they can keep it to inspect it and let you go.
1. If you don't and they find out, then you committed an felony. It is the same as the "Are you an terrorist?" questions. Once they want you for more serious stuff like blasphemy against king donald, then they can pull out the convicted felon card and increase the sentence.
2. + 4. It depends
3. If you plan to go to the us while Trump and his chronies are in an position of power, then the best way to scrub them is not to post it.
5. See 1. if you don't disclose all, they can pull the lie on a form card
"anonymous" should be quoted too, unless you're a flawless security expert?
Have you only ever logged onto them on burner devices / qubes and over eg Tor?
My understanding is (1) yes. (2) maybe, maybe no, depends on if they're looking up people tagging you in threads? If there's signs you're scrubbing yourself out of politically controversial threads that might become problematic. (4) yes, yes, yes. (5) yes.
Assuming they do ask in the first place.
It would appear rage has well and truly been bated. My word.
Yeah I usually expect better of the comments here but it looks like a nerve has been hit.
Bated means the opposite of what you mean.
The comments on this HN post nicely color the problem Tim points out, from the comments that assume the exceptionalism of the USA, to comments that say “stay in Canada”, to comments that call the post “moral preening”.
I grew up in a very conservative household, and until the tea party/Trumpian alliance would have called myself a small-l libertarian.
Now? I won’t vote republican for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which is that it rhymes with the worst parts of the political parties we destroyed in world wars.
There’s something new almost every day that should, in a sane culture, cause folks to abandon the Republican Party en masse. Today’s example? The 1.776 Billion “anti-weaponization” fund that is a slush fund for Trump and his allies, including folks that stormed the Capitol on January 6, 2021. The grift of this administration is shocking, but the fact that rank-and-file conservatives aren’t abandoning it by the millions gives away the game. It isn’t about principles, it’s about one party winning, no matter what.
We used to fight for what’s right, but we have become the villain. Tim is right about the declination of America (realizing his title is a double-entendre), and I can’t help but wonder if there is even a line that Trump could cross to the modern “Republican” party.
> I won’t vote republican for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which is that it rhymes with the worst parts of the political parties we destroyed in world wars.
As a former right winger, now recovering conservative, I'm inclined to agree. The greater issue for me is the right became every single thing they accused the left of (being easily hurt, mandated viewpoints, group think).
It's all the natural progression of the animosity campaigns Newt Gingrich launched a generation ago. ref: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/662/where-there-is-a-will/a...
I said in another response, Trump has shown the cards to world that there is a sizable portion of the country that can not be trusted. Other nations have realised this is an embedded problem and cannot be fixed with another election. At least not on a long scale.
Yeah, setting policies and even cultural differences aside, the level of blatant corruption in this administration is simply beyond the pale. In any other western country, this admin would have been gone by now.
And there's so much of it that it's almost become the norm. It's shocking that anyone -- no matter their political views -- can continue to support that.
We literally went from "drain the swamp" to "fill the swamp"
I honestly do not want my kids to grow up in this country. Which is too bad because it has a lot going for it otherwise. I'm actively looking for an exit strategy.
TIL a new word - "boosterism"