peder
2 hours ago
Leftists doing anything except just building more housing
Rent is falling all over the Southeast where housing has been built in droves, and actually in greater quantities than new demand. The only solution is just flooding the market with housing.
xnx
4 minutes ago
> The only solution is just flooding the market with housing.
Definitely true, but much harder to do in areas that are already built up and near jobs vs. building in empty desert for retirees.
kbelder
29 minutes ago
I voted you up because you're correct, in that the only solution is construction and there are people that are doing everything in their power to avoid that truism.
But I don't think it is a left/right issue. In certain regions it may be the left, in others the right, but generally it is subset of both that have investment in artificial scarcity. It's just the justifications that change depending on ideology.
justonceokay
23 minutes ago
See NIMBYs all down the west coast. I bet 90% of city dwelling homeowners would identify as “democrat or further left”, but are very conservative with the character of their neighborhood.
In my experience the bulders and tradesmen who are more right-wing have more to gain from allowing more and faster construction and are more interested in removing laws and restrictions.
A lot of this comes from the attitude in the 60s and 70s where the liberal strategy was to sue the government to stop them from destroying the environment. People from that era saw the smog and the flammable rivers and are generally against development , even though today’s development processes are starkly different from back then.
peder
18 minutes ago
Right, it's not an inherently left vs right thing. Today NIMBYism has been largely a left-wing phenomenon, with really high end housing developments that are politically untouchable by housing projects.
The answer is always the same tho: make it easy to build housing, and build more housing. Keep building housing until there's a glut of supply.
profsummergig
2 hours ago
I've noticed that it's super-rich leftists who oppose permits for new housing, not all leftists.
An interesting group of people they are, the super-rich leftists. The way they weaponize the environment to prevent others having what they want... really makes you wonder.
user
an hour ago
cucumber3732842
an hour ago
It's not even the "super" rich. They don't care what you do. They can afford walls, hedgerows, extra land as a buffer, the finest sound deadening windows, etc, etc, etc. And they can afford to live among people like them so pretty much all that is only of limited relevance to begin with. They make the rules of the game so they make money and their assets go up either way.
It's some jerk who makes $200k who can afford the house but can't afford to not care what their neighbors do that drives all this at scale.
He's the one trying to scheme up some way to get the government to use other people's tax dollars to threaten them if they try and do something he doesn't like, because that's his only lever to pull. And there's enough of these jerks the government(s) pander to them. The result is everything gets stifled and red-taped. Can't run a bar here. Can't have an apartment building there. Can't have too little parking, but if you have too many cars you're running a junkyard, and on and on and on and on. It's these people in aggregate that result in the existing body of regulation of which there always seem to be a few lines that can block any given development.
And then they have the gall to turn around and whine about the sum total of all this. Not enough housing, not enough amenities, what does get built is ungodly expensive.
"man, this park sure is dirty" <throws cigarette butt on ground> "I wonder how it got that way".
lukifer
16 minutes ago
Half-agree: zoning restrictions and non-essential building regulations are a de-facto government handout to existing property owners.
At the same time, apologists for rentiers will do anything except taxing unimproved land value (which among other virtues, functions as a vacancy tax to reduce unproductive speculation, and incentivize development).
The blunt reality is a zero-sum tension: homeowners and landlords want number go up, new buyers and renters want number go down.
Tade0
an hour ago
China built a lot of housing and it didn't do anything until the ponzi scheme started unraveling.
Asymptotically what you said might be true, but before it gets there years might pass as they did in China. It's not clear how long this madness would last if not for COVID.
nradov
31 minutes ago
Outside of the major city cores, much of what China built wasn't "housing" in the sense that most Westerners think of housing. The buildings often looked superficially like housing but were never really usable for that purpose. They were more like physical "tokens" used as speculative trading vehicles. Now some of those are being demolished, either due to lack of consumer demand or because the "tofu dreg" construction quality was so bad that they aren't safe to occupy.
harvey9
20 minutes ago
I guess it wasn't housing in the sense that Chinese think of housing either, or more of it would have been occupied.
peder
21 minutes ago
Housing prices cratered in China, because, yes, eventually supply catches up and then the ponzi schema has nowhere to go but down. Lots of people hold real estate thinking it's an investment just by itself, so it's been a vicious cycle of prices going up. But if you build enough supply, the market stops treating property that way.
I don't think the Chinese real estate market will ever truly "recover" to the Tulip Mania levels it hit before. Especially with a declining population.
gadders
17 minutes ago
Leftists doing anything except curbing immigration.
Fixed it for you.
scythe
an hour ago
Certainly, building new housing works well at a policy level. But calling for new housing doesn't seem to work at a political level. We've been fighting this fight ever since the financial crisis and every election cycle brings us a few victories with an equal number of reversals. And it isn't only within the left that the opposition arises; it wears red in progressive neighborhoods, but it seems to have a taste for brown when that's convenient.
I don't think that the urbanist movement can succeed if it is driven by policy wonks who want to throw out the rulebook and impose reforms from the ivory tower without a real small-d democratic political strategy. Many of us are used to fighting the political battle against climate change by being Absolutely Correct and expecting that Science with her indefatigable armies of Reality will guard the flanks. A fully economic fight like this one just doesn't have the same kind of inevitability. Every step forward on the ground weakens the sense of urgency in the legislature, leading to an equilibrium trap without a vigorous political movement that can hold momentum.
Nerds do not usually want to do politics, but in housing you have to do politics.
bpt3
an hour ago
IMO, this is largely because the government's job is to stay out of the way, and people who hold elected office in areas where this is a problem (the Northeast Corridor and West coast generally), mostly have a certain something in common that indicates they are likely to think they need to "help" the market along.
It's not a coincidence that the "housing crisis" continues unabated in places like NYC that are losing population, yet appears to be solved in areas in the south that are absorbing those people.
GN0515
an hour ago
Does this not have more to do with desirability? It's kind of hard to compare property prices in NYC with Alabama. Like no shit housing will be affordable in places that, no offense, are kind of a shit hole. In Canada, housing prices are crazy in beautiful in beautiful Vancouver, but are totally "affordable" in the arctic circle. It has nothing to do with legislation.
nradov
10 minutes ago
That's funny because a lot of people in Huntsville, AL would consider San Francisco, CA to be a literal shit hole. And yet SF real estate prices are much higher. It turns out there are many factors: local government development policies, weather, jobs, geography, etc.
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Human-waste-shuts-dow...
tharmas
4 minutes ago
I thought it was development companies that build houses? And why would development companies build so much housing that the value started to drop? Are you saying that "leftists" put up barriers to new housing such as regulation that helps drive up the overall cost of building and hence the price of housing? I would agree with you there. Are you sure "housing has been built in droves" is what brought the price of rent down?
House prices went sky high because of investors/speculators increasing demand (and massive immigration). Maybe if the government regulated more who buys housing (home dwellers not investors) rather than regulating what gets built. Also, have more sensible immigration levels.
Since developers will be less likely to build with falling prices perhaps the govt can build rent to own housing for lower income earners. Or incentivize private developers to build affordable housing.
High prices doesn't necessarily mean its purely a supply problem. If profit is high with low supply for developers what incentive would they have to increase supply?
Cue the downvotes.
01HNNWZ0MV43FF
2 hours ago
It's true.
There's no one silver bullet, it will have to be a multi-front push:
1. Just build more
2. Zone for multi-family housing
3. Get rid of minimum parking and minimum lot size requirements
4. Allow mixed-user residential and commercial buildings
5. Shift property tax towards taxing the land and exempting buildings from tax, to force speculators to sell vacant land and derilect buildings for development
6. When things start moving, invest in walkability and public transit to support dense urban cores. Cars are great for low-density, but paying for miles of road and polluted air in dense city cores is silly behavior
bpt3
an hour ago
#2 - #4 are really just specific ways of accomplishing #1.
Most people don't want to live in dense urban cores, so #5 and #6 can easily backfire and stunt progress on #1.
Just let people decide what to build where, both as individuals and communities. If dense urban cores truly are the "better" way of living, it will prove itself soon enough without the urbanists trying to force everyone down their path to their own detriment.
tuna74
an hour ago
If you don't want to live in an apartment, buy a house outside of the urban core. Are you arguing that cities should not build infrastructure or make it nice for the people living there?
tristor
an hour ago
No, he's saying the government should get out of deciding what to build and make it legal to build so that people build more housing, of any type, period. "Just buy a house outside of an urban core" is only possible if such housing exists.
convolvatron
16 minutes ago
places where there is remaining land to build more single family homes don't actually have zoning regulations requiring developers to build high-density units. there is nothing stopping anyone from buying land and building there, except a lack of demand.
the place where there is leverage is in taking high-demand areas historically zoned for single-unit and opening them up to the market to build higher density housing.
rubyn00bie
44 minutes ago
> Most people don't want to live in dense urban cores, so #5 and #6 can easily backfire and stunt progress on #1.
80% of the US population would disagree. It really seems like you’re applying what you like to the entire population and then assuming that anything else is rubbish.
Having grown up in a rural community, and small towns, I never really want to go back. Dense urban areas are wonderful, I find huge amounts of joy in multiculturalism. The plethora of ideas, language, food, and art is inspiring. I will never get that anywhere except dense urban areas.
Demand vs supply is the crux of the affordability crisis, and the points outlined in the post you’re replying to are all valid and great ways to help increase supply.
And FWIW—- you’re absolutely welcome to enjoy and appreciate sparsely populated areas, but I really think you need to understand the vast majority of people disagree with you. Not because they’re “stuck” in some dense urban area but because they want to be there.
nradov
5 minutes ago
I don't know where you're coming up with that 80% number because the actual percentage of people living in dense urban cores is much lower. Many people live in neighborhoods that the Census classifies as "urban" but that includes a lot of neighborhoods that most regular people would classify as suburban. It turns out that given a choice, most people prefer to have some space and privacy rather that being squeezed together in high-rise apartments.
user
39 minutes ago
lux-lux-lux
an hour ago
San Francisco has more homes per capita (~2.0) than any of the southeast states (2.1-2.4).
nearting
an hour ago
Unless this is a very generous approximation, 2.0 is less than 2.1-2.4.
Even setting that aside, homes per capita is not indicative of supply and demand - if everyone in SF wants to live in a house alone, it really won't matter that SF has slightly more homes per capita.
fn-mote
2 hours ago
Yes, hate to say it but there is only one way to lower housing prices.
Also I have limited sympathy for people who move to high COL areas and then are upset by housing prices.
WarmWash
2 hours ago
>Also I have limited sympathy for people who move to high COL areas and then are upset by housing prices.
*Move to a high CoL area to get a high paying job, and then are upset by housing prices.
Many people would be overall better off with a lower paying job in a lower CoL area
wpm
an hour ago
Many people would not be able to get a lower paying job in a lower CoL area because there aren't "many" jobs in lower CoL areas.
WarmWash
9 minutes ago
There is low CoL like Belleville, KS and there is low CoL like Pittsburgh, PA.
A nurse or line technician might have a hard time getting work in Belleville. But there is plenty of opportunity in Pittsburgh.
But alas, the extra $25K for working in NYC might totally blind them to the full picture.
WillAdams
an hour ago
If there were jobs in those locations --- Catch 22.