[citation needed]

Its five years with no limitations, so when you are due to be released; Whats your password? Another five years... Its such a poorly worded law you could literally spend your life in prison for forgetting your password. And Its mostly used against peaceful protesters.

Are we damning the UK with faint praise now?

I'm not even sure how much practical difference there is between 5 and indefinite in practice, 5 years is a long time. I imagine it is pretty life-destroying. Especially for the crime of having something on your phone that you want to keep private.

> If it’s not about nation security or CSAM, it’s two.

I am sure we all get what you mean, but there is a comic interpretation in vaguely-Soviet style here where if someone hasn't done anything wrong they only get 2 years. I'm going to spend some time this weekend making sure my encryption is plausibly deniable where possible.

Oh just 5 years, that's OK then.

So you're saying it's still at the discretion of a single magistrate?

I'm sure China could find some judges to rule in the name of national security if it would give everyone warm fuzzies.

Judicial checks and balances only function when they're independent of the executive and parliament

An interesting observation of the West is that people have an innate trust in the authorities/institutions. It's largely because the institutions have been well run for so long. But as that fades we're left in this twilight zone where you can point to a law like it prevents something. As is often pointed out, the Soviet constitution was much more free than the US one. Even the Romans knew this distinction

With LLMs, it should be easier than ever to fake generate text messages, notes, emails, etc.

You do use your "fake" profile regularly, just for "sanitized" activities. Check in on official sanctioned news sources, do your "legit" banking and financial stuff, etc.

I suppose that you could have the phone listening in real time and generating profiles that are hidden and embarrassing but not illegal.

So when they ask for the real profile it shows in the next unlock a profile that makes it very clear you have a deeply embarrassing ASMR addiction.

It could cross reference your local laws to ensure to not spill the beans on something locally illegal.

xkcd 538

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security.png

So put stuff on it, duh

They would be real credentials, just to a separate profile. Are they going to make multiple profiles illegal?

If your country has this problem, you’re way past worrying about phones, and you need to be acquiring arms and training.

I maintain that the series "24" back in the day did us all a great disservice by promoting the value of torture to "save the world".

I'm hard pressed to find any reason for any citizen to be compelled to share their secrets with the police because the police had "suspicions".

The 4th and 5th are paramount for a free society.

> with a hose

You mean wrench? https://xkcd.com/538/

Right, which is why they need to start changing their behavior.

>Or maybe an approach which is on a spectrum between >increasingly onerous not to own one at all.

Yes, and I think this unfortunately demands a grey area. I'm starting to treat my smartphone more like a work device, and there are a few things I do on it:

- My work's authenticator app is there.

- Unfortunately Signal is tied to smartphone usage.

- Practically speaking, people will expect to be able to send you text messages.

- It's still useful for taking pictures.

- My banking app is on there.

Outside of rare occasions, that's really all I use my phone for. I don't carry it around the house. If I go somewhere with my wife, I don't even bring my phone most of the time. I'm "required" to have it, but in principle it's not even mine. It shouldn't be trusted or enjoyed.

Funny how it's a horrible misrepresentation slurring the honor of the United Kingdom to exaggerate the penalty of not unlocking your phone for His Majesty's Law Enforcement, but US border cops being allowed to ask foreigners for the same thing upon pain of not being allowed to enter the country (something that no one seems to care about other nations doing?) is totally the same thing.

Upon entering the US, CBP can ask you to unlock your phone, then connect it to a little box that hacks into the phone and downloads everything. Search for "Cellebrite Universal Forensic Extraction Device (UFED)" or "Grayshift GrayKey". The border agent doesn't have to know anything about phones/computers, it's just "plug in, press button". With modern phones, they really only work if you unlock your phone before handing it to them, and they'll make you do that. If you don't unlock the phone and let them walk off with it for awhile, they'll refuse you entry into the USA and send you back.

US citizens are, of course, allowed in even if they refuse, but they will confiscate a citizen's phone in exchange for a custody receipt (Form 6051-D) and they are supposed to return it to the US citizen after they break into the phone / crack the encryption. If they can't crack it, they can choose to never return the phone to the US citizen. And it can be a very stressful situation in which citizens may not know what their rights are in the moment (or can't afford to replace their phone or lose access to it because how would you even get an Uber from the airport or coordinate a pickup if you don't have a phone).

You can choose to bring burner phones or make sure your phone is freshly factory reset, but if you're a non-citizen that can also be a reason to be refused entry, and if you are a citizen that can "get you on a list", leading to getting "SSSS" stamped on every boarding pass for every flight you take, in every country in the world, for the next many years. If your boarding pass gets "SSSS" written on it, you will get pulled aside by security and all your bags get individually hand-searched prior to every single flight (even transfers/connections/layovers). This will be a global thing, not limited to USA flights.

Non-citizens are also sometimes asked for a list of your social media accounts and the passwords to their social media accounts. Refusing to provide your passwords can be used as a reason to refuse entry to the USA. If the USA believes you have a social media account that you failed to tell them about, that can also be a reason to refuse entry.

> Of all the issues with the US justice system, being compelled to disclose passwords isn't one of them.

This is not totally true. It is also a US issue: CBP has been asking for passwords (or to unlock the device) for phones and computers for more than a year now. Last year, multiple people got turned around because they disagreed with US policies and political views that differ from those of the US's current president.

> Of all the issues with the US justice system, being compelled to disclose passwords isn't one of them

Under the present administration I wouldn't be surprised if for example ICE tried the $5 wrench method.

Depends, you can get NSL'd to disclose passwords. Good luck running that one up to the supreme court. And biometrics aren't as well-protected. Though, yes, in the UK it's a much more routine affair.

The above probably meant a point that current democracies are increasingly sliding into the same hole as authoritarian governments. Amount on encroachment of governments and big corporations on personal freedoms and democracy in "democratic" countries is quickly becoming intolerable under a guise of safety and "save the children" mantras

You have never crossed the border into the Great US of A then

I take it you haven't crossed the border recently?

That just boils down to “you have no real rights, but if you keep your head down and dont get unlucky, you probably won’t be targeted”.

I’m a white US citizen who worked on oil rigs in GCC countries (Arabian Gulf). I was put on a global watch list for 6 years due to my work in the middle east.

I still don’t know why - maybe due to colleagues in my contacts? There was a “mega church” near me that some of my coworkers attended which was the “minority religion” of Saudi Arabia, so perhaps I was a few degrees of Kevin Bacon from some people that Saudi had flagged. Or maybe just travel patterns - I often didn’t know exactly when my rotation would end and I frequently bought last minute flights to head back home / to vacation destinations.

I certainly was not put on a list for any of my speech (public or private), which had been extremely measured at the time (and still is), due to understanding that my host countries had different laws and constitutions from our own. I very carefully observed all the laws and social expectations. But nonetheless, I found myself on a list anyways and for that 6-7 year duration, all of my boarding passes globally got “SSSS” written on it and all my luggage + carryons got unpacked by hand and hand-searched prior to every flight, including connecting flights.

Every flight I flew those searches were a very personal 20-30 minute long reminder to carefully manicure who I’m in contact with, what I say, how/where/when I travel, and any other records/data that I might generate. I often had to give a heads up to anyone I was traveling with (colleagues or personal friends) that we had to leave a little extra early to accommodate those searches.

Roleplaying a parallel reallity where "Europe" is an oppressive totalitarian regime will never not be funny.

In the US, not disclosing a password is explicitly protected (5th amndmnt), SCOTUS has been clear. not so for biometrics, but so for PIN/passwd