trothamel
5 days ago
If I remember correctly, the original version of wordle used a word list that was run past the creator's wife, who had learned English later in life. The result was a really accessible game - none of the words felt like ones you wouldn't know. It probably makes sense to reuse words than risk losing that accessibility.
(I kept a copy of original wordle, and it seems to have 2,315 words that are possible answers.)
hyperbovine
5 days ago
It’s this. There are many five letter words that are not “wordley”. Words such as, idk, bokeh, are technically part of the lexicon but would never appear as a solution. The wordle bot will even tell you this if you guess them — “good guess, but unlikely to appear as a solution”. The crossword has a similar sort of unwritten rule, maybe not as strict, but really hard technical words seldom appear.
gretch
5 days ago
> The crossword has a similar sort of unwritten rule, maybe not as strict, but really hard technical words seldom appear.
Not my experience at all.
Ask me how I know what an EPEE is
rhplus
5 days ago
EPEE is a common fill word from a lexicon informally known as crosswordese.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosswordese
Really no harder than memorizing all the 2 and 3 letter words in Scrabble and many players will pick most up in a few months.
cyode
5 days ago
I didn’t know it was called crosswordese! I wonder what the most common term used is. As a very occasional player, for some reason ARIA, IBIS, and VENI/VIDI/VICI stick out, but I’m sure it’s actually one with an E.
all_factz
5 days ago
VENI/VIDI/VICI are easy for anyone who studied Latin (as indeed used to be common), and ARIA is similarly easy for anyone who knows about opera. Basically, the crossword is for snobs.
swores
5 days ago
I agree that crosswords often include cultural references that lean towards certain demographics / assuming particular education, and that can feel exclusionary if you don’t share that background - and there's even an argument to suggest snobbery might be behind those choices.
But I disagree that that makes it for snobs. Snobbery is more about an attitude of looking down on others or their tastes, whereas knowing Latin or being a fan of opera is really just about exposure.
Sure, there exist some (too many) opera fans who would say something like "it's real art compared to pop or hip hop being low class trash", but that's not a defining part of liking opera and plenty of people who like opera aren't snobs. Ironically it's a different form of snobbery (sometimes called reverse snobbery though personally I hate that term), to dismiss anyone who learned Latin or who likes opera as being a snob!
thaumasiotes
5 days ago
Major crossword offenders:
ERR, ORCA, OBOE, ALOE, ORE, ODE
Thorrez
5 days ago
The middle 4 are all fairly common words. "Ode" isn't super common, but I hear it in "An ode to..." phrases. And "err" I've only ever heard in 1 phrase: "To err is human."
thaumasiotes
4 days ago
> The middle 4 are all fairly common words.
That's not really the concept. People know what an orca is.
But if you see a crossword clue that says "black and white animal", you know that the answer is ORCA without even needing to look at the number of letters in the answer. (Could it be "skunk"? Could it be "panda"? No, those are stupid questions.) Same thing if the clue is "marine predator". (Could that be "shark"? No.) The words I listed are incredibly likely to appear in crossword puzzles. That's what's weird about them.
DamnInteresting
4 days ago
See also: "Err on the side of caution."
Suppafly
2 days ago
certain crossword authors like certain words, there is one that almost always uses OREO in their puzzles.
thaumasiotes
5 days ago
An épée is one of three types of sword used in the three styles of Western fencing. As such, it's about as technical as, say, the words "touchdown" or "mitt".
It's also just the regular French word that means "sword". But although crossword puzzles frequently ask you to know common French words, I've never seen one clue the answer EPEE that way.
user
5 days ago
seanhunter
4 days ago
Epee is not an obscure word. It's an olympic event for goodness sake.
TimorousBestie
5 days ago
> Ask me how I know what an EPEE is
That’s when you’re like, only tangentially involved with the making of a movie or tv show, but too famous to go without a credit?
busyant
5 days ago
> EPEE
They love that one.
wombatpm
5 days ago
If you took fencing at an Ivy League school for you PR requirement you would know all about foil, saber, and epee fencing. Not everyone gets to row crew.
hvb2
5 days ago
Wholly offtopic but just posting because I thought it was awesome...
During Covid I saw an ad for a fencing school how it was the best sport during Covid.
You wear a mask
You keep your distance
And if someone doesn't, you stick em with the pointy end
:)
thaumasiotes
5 days ago
It's actually a terrible sport for covid, involving heavy breathing in close proximity to other people indoors.
Any outdoor sport would be better.
busyant
a day ago
I'm not sure if this is a humble-brag and/or if it's a subtle dig at the out-of-touch lives of NYT crossword players.
Don't forget sailing and equestrian.
enlyth
5 days ago
And any 4 letter instrument is usually OBOE and a fish related clue is EELS
ted_bunny
5 days ago
Ah yes, good old ARA Parseghian. That guy.
groggo
5 days ago
IMO scrabble would be improved by a similar limitation. There's too many nonsense words.
ameliaquining
5 days ago
Scrabble is a competitive game, not a puzzle, and therefore subject to a different set of constraints. (Players in a competitive game are trying to win; a puzzle author, if they're any good at their job, is ultimately trying to lose.)
In particular, you have to consider the equilibrium. If you only allow a subset of words in Scrabble, this replaces the competitive advantage from knowing lots of words that no one uses in real life, with a competitive advantage from knowing the exact contours of the border between acceptable and unacceptable words. I would argue that this is even worse; at least if you learn lots of Scrabble words you're learning something about the real world.
By contrast, Wordle can self-impose whatever constraints they want on solutions, and people don't have to know what those constraints are in order to solve the puzzle. (It can help a little on the margin, which in a perfect world would not be the case, but it's much less of a problem for the puzzle-solving experience than the Scrabble equivalent would be.)
groggo
5 days ago
Ya that's a good point for competitive scrabble. However today I think a lot of people's main exposure to Scrabble comes from WordsWithFriends (and recently, the new NYT games version). In those games, there's no penalty for getting a wrong word, it just won't let you play it. In that context, I at least think it would be nice to have a setting with a more limited list... it could be like Chess timed variants.
It's obviously an impossible challenge to draw those contours in language. Wordle did pretty well though! And going the other direction, just allowing everything that could possibly a word, just starts getting ridiculous.
ameliaquining
4 days ago
Even in casual Scrabble-like games, I expect using a restricted set of words would create a lot of "come on, that's totally a real word, why can't I use it" moments. Most people know at least a few uncommon words that most other people don't (because it's different words for each person).
The Wordle list of legal guesses is not substantially curated; AFAIK basically all five-letter words legal in Scrabble are on it (except on offensiveness grounds, which was a highly controversial decision). If this were not the case, I predict you'd get user dissatisfaction as per above. Wordle's list of possible answers is much more curated, but that's my point; it can err on the side of conservatism, because users won't notice if a word that they'd expect to be on there is missing, whereas they will notice if such a word is not allowed as a guess.
enlyth
5 days ago
Will Anderson has an excellent Scrabble related channel on YouTube, would recommend to anyone who is interested
wartijn_
5 days ago
Wouldn’t that make Scrabble only harder and more annoying to play? With that limitation you’ll get situations where you play a perfectly valid word, but it gets rejected because it’s not in the list of approved words. To get good at that version of the game, you’ll have to study the Scrabble word list instead of the dictionary.
With Wordle the limitation is only put on the words the game generates as answers. You can use obscure words to guess, they just won’t be the answer.
zem
5 days ago
this is already the case with scrabble; there is a strictly defined scrabble word list that determines whether a word is acceptable or not, and it often leaves out words that you might find in some other dictionary that is not the official scrabble one (collins for most of the world, or a custom dictionary for american scrabble)
wartijn_
4 days ago
Ah ok. Shows what I know about Scrabble.
badgersnake
5 days ago
Caulk is in there, I would say that’s fairly technical. My wife didn’t know it.
nasmorn
5 days ago
I am not a native speaker but how does your wife name the caulk in the shower? Silicone? Or do you maintain it in such pristine condition that no word was ever spoken about it?
thaumasiotes
4 days ago
I assume she calls it grout, like a normal person. ;D
badc0ffee
4 days ago
Caulk and grout are different things. She calls the sandy stone stuff between the tiles the same thing as the rubbery bead in the corner?
thaumasiotes
4 days ago
If it were me, I'd call a rubbery bead in the corner "sealant".
badgersnake
5 days ago
Yeah, silicone or just sealant. Maybe it’s an Americanism.
_whiteCaps_
4 days ago
I don't think so - wooden ships have been caulked to seal the planks for a long time.
knuckleheads
5 days ago
Yes, that's correct! Took her about a year off and on, he had made a little app for her to go through and categorize everything.
As an aside, for about $200, you can ask a true/false question of every word in the English language with a frontier LLM, and get mostly good answers. I make word games in my free time and was sort of shocked when I realized how cheap intelligence has been getting.
amluto
5 days ago
$200? Does this use reasoning? Does it involve forgetting to use KV caching?
This should cost well under $1. Process the prompt. Then, for each word, input that word and then the end of prompt token, get your one token of output (maybe two if your favorite model wants to start with a start-of-reply token), and that’s it.
knuckleheads
5 days ago
Yes, it uses reasoning. I tried without it, and at the time with OpenAI's api, it was not giving such good answers. Reasoning improved it a fair amount.
jonwinstanley
5 days ago
Yes there’s no point using technically correct words if hardly anyone know them.
sobkas
5 days ago
Language or the way we use it is often used to exclude "undesired", so there is a point in using them. Not a very nice point, but a point nevertheless.
hyperbovine
5 days ago
Sure there is, as long as your audience does.
NewJazz
5 days ago
Also they seem to never use vulgar words like my opener, penis.
BurningFrog
5 days ago
This may well be why the game became such a hit among everyone.