I really don't understand why companies are ignoring intel's foundry services... for the first time since probably the 2000's, intel's 18A nodes are significantly ahead of what TSMC is offering. Apparently they have capacity and are demonstrating wafer production with their own chips.
It seems wholly illogical that Apple would get refused wafer volume by TSMC and still refuse to give volume to intel foundry services. When you layer on geopolitical factors and national security implications + the fact that Apple is a US company - what reason could they possibly have to turn the shoulder to intel's foundries?
If Taiwan ends up imploding in any of the numerous ways we are aware of today - and which this article adds to - I think there are exactly zero reasons to feel like this couldn't have been avoided.
The more complex the process becomes, the harder it is to have equivalent competition so you're bound to have issues where a single company's investment decisions have widespread impacts.
My perspective on the China risk differs some, though. China wouldn't benefit much from attacking TSMC. This is the first time I've heard anyone suggest that they might. At best they'd like to have it in-tact if they do take Taiwan, but there have been talks about machines being rigged to explode to deny them from China, or the US striking them in that scenario.
If neither we nor China get to work with TSMC, then we're still ahead in relative terms. If China did attack TSMC, they set the norm that the fabs (including their own) are now a fair target which would be a larger disadvantage for them than it would be for us since China's physical power projection remains pretty regional outside of Chinese nationals abroad engaging in sabotage.
That is one of their biggest weaknesses. Yes they have a lot of manufacturing capacity and a large population with many talented people, but in a way we have lent them the power to scale up to see what they'll do. We are already putting some pressure on that scale now that they've shown who they are, but if it came to war it would be very doable to start reversing their scale and their capacity to do the same to us would degrade as ours increases.
Even if all the AI in the world was destroyed, that's how it would play out. The problem is that Taiwan remains in close proximity to China so similar to Ukraine it would likely come down to how long they're willing to throw everything at it.
If Russia and China wanted to be powerful, it's just idiocy to show the existing superpower that you cannot be trusted with the power you have. If they fancy a merit based society, they forgot that merit isn't omnipotence and you still need the right ideas to be at the top to accompany the merit. For China maybe they need AI for that alone, but western societies at least have ways for the right ideas to make it to the top without the strict need of AI.
The US has shown that it can't handle any level of discomfort. The reason Trump is back in the white house is because grocery prices went up a little bit. Can you imagine the failure of the tech companies that are propping up the entire economy? That would happen under a Taiwan invasion scenario. China has a much high pain tolerance than US citizens at least. I'd argue they would outlast the US. Would they outlast the US military? I don't know. But it may not matter as given enough pain the US population will make itself heard.
> Anthropic Chief Executive Officer Dario Amodei said selling advanced artificial intelligence chips to China is a blunder with “incredible national security implications” [...] “I think this is crazy. It’s a bit like selling nuclear weapons to North Korea.”
This is all a smoke screen. He knows very well that China can and will develop their own hardware to train AI models (and in fact, they are successfully doing just that; e.g. the recently released GLM-Image was trained on their own silicon). His only objective here is to slow them down enough so that they don't eat Anthropic/Claude's lunch releasing open-weight models that are increasingly competitive. But he can't just openly say "hey, we don't like that they release open weight models for free", so he's engaging in the AI version of the "think of the children" argument.
Anthropic's whole modus operandi was always pretty much "we should control this technology, no one else". It's not a coincidence they're the only major lab which has not released any open weight models, they don't publish any useful research (for training models) and they actively lobby the lawmakers to restrict people's access to open weight models. It's incredibly ironic that Dario is worried about (I quote) "1984 scenarios" while that's exactly what his company is aiming towards (e.g. giving Palantir access to those models is not "unsafe", but an average Joe having unrestricted local access is an immediate 1984-style dystopia).
"AI has a physical dependency in Taiwan that can be easily destroyed by Chinese missiles, even without an invasion" ?
Arguably false. Why do you think the US has encouraged TSMC foundries, now inside Arizona ? It's obviously to protect against the scenario that China takes Taiwan. In that case, give it 6 months or less for US TSMC foundries to produce the finest. China taking Taiwan will likely not result in the CCP getting any technology, certainly Taiwanese have "contingency plans" to vaporize all tech in the event they are invaded.
That's over-optimistic.
> Why do you think the US has encouraged TSMC foundries, now inside Arizona ? It's obviously to protect against the scenario that China takes Taiwan. In that case, give it 6 months or less for US TSMC foundries to produce the finest.
American business culture works pretty strongly against "give it 6 months or less for US TSMC foundries to produce the finest."
I think it's most likely those fabs will stagnate and the American MBAs running them will just milk them for short-term profits. Why invest in technology when you can buy back shares? After all, your only goal is number-go-up.
> China taking Taiwan will likely not result in the CCP getting any technology, certainly Taiwanese have "contingency plans" to vaporize all tech in the event they are invaded.
Not necessarily. Technology isn't so much the machines, it's the know-how. TMSC employees will still need jobs, post invasion, and I'm sure China will pay them very well. Some fraction will go to work for Chinese fabs, and teach them TMSC's tricks and knowledge.
>American business culture works pretty strongly against "give it 6 months or less for US TSMC foundries to produce the finest."
>I think it's most likely those fabs will stagnate and the American MBAs running them will just milk them for short-term profits. Why invest in technology when you can buy back shares? After all, your only goal is number-go-up.
The same American business culture that produced Apple/Amazon/Alphabet/Microsoft/Meta/Tesla/etc? They seem to invest quite a bit in "technology".
> The same American business culture that produced Apple/Amazon/Alphabet/Microsoft/Meta/Tesla/etc? They seem to invest quite a bit in "technology".
Yeah. There can be sparks of innovation, but the overall trend seems to be squandering advantages for short term financial gains. And honestly, some of your examples aren't great: Telsa's probably going to lose to the likes of BYD (but for unusual leadership reasons); Microsoft seems to be losing former capability, which is reflected in many of its products (https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/windows-11/windows-...); and I don't think Meta has done much besides sell ads.
IIRC, Chinese companies, on the other hand, tend not actually make very much money for their investors.
No, the same idiot MBAs that almost destroyed Intel and Boeing and General Electric.
There certainly are idiot MBAs (and non MBAs), and perhaps the ratio is too high in the USA, but based on the pre-eminent businesses in the USA, I wouldn't say it's "the" culture.
One of the reasons Intel failed and TSMC succeeded is because Intel was unwilling to pay what the other big tech companies were paying (and part of that pay is with RSUs which stock buybacks help offset). However, for workers in Taiwan, TSMC was the best option, so TSMC could pay less.
90% of TSMC's capacity is still in Taiwan. A substantial amount of global high end chip capacity is also in South Korea and Japan, which would likely get pulled in.
A war would not wipe out chip production, but the squeeze would be immense for many years.
I don't even know what it means. "even without an invasion"? The author think China will destroy TSMC just because? To slow down AI progress?
> if we got to a situation where only the U.S. had the sort of AI that would give us an unassailable advantage militarily, then the optimal strategy for China would change to taking TSMC off of the board.
Lmao it's not. The author doesn't know what they're talking about at all. Let's be realistic: the current TSMC technology will be accessible to China, likely via espionage. The question is just how soon. It has already happened before. China's 7nm process was developed with the help from one of the highest level ex-TSMC researcher[0].
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liang_Mong_Song
Hiring people isn't espionage. Key talent leaving a dominant manufacturer for a paycheck at a struggling competitor and bringing their knowledge is just about the basis of capitalism.
The overwhelming bulk of production, in a massively oversubscribed industry, is in Taiwan. If Taiwan's production went offline, there would be enormous turmoil.
"certainly Taiwanese have "contingency plans" to vaporize all tech in the event they are invaded"
Given the way things are going, a rationalist would surmise that Taiwan is likely in talks with China for a peaceful reunification, Hong Kong style. The old way is very much over, the US is a worthless if not negative-value ally, and it's pretty clear to every living human with a functioning brain that this is going to be China's century.
Indeed, the article casually says "Taiwan is claimed by China, which has not and will not take reunification-by-force off of the table", which is technically true it isn't contextually informative. For those not fully up to date on the history of this conflict, for decades Taiwan claimed all of China (and most Western countries treated Taiwan as the singular government of all of China), and held out for reunification-by-force. This isn't as simple and straightforward like Trump's "we have a military ergo we get to steal better countries because they make us look bad".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF-ZN11DRSE
> Rather, the only thing that will truly motivate TSMC to take on more risk is competition.
Maybe I missed something, but if Google, Microsoft, Apple, OpenAI, etc want more capex on fabs, they can front that money themselves?
From a NatSec perspective, TSMC isn't really a bottleneck - most weapon systems use SoCs and microcontrollers that can be dabbed on "legacy nodes" (ie. 28/40/60/90nm) or 14/20/22nm nodes, and compound semiconductors.
The ability to mass produce a Pascal or Volta comparable GPU or Apple A11 comparable SoC is all you need for more cutting edge systems.
Power Electronics and Compound Semiconductors (GaN, SiC) have historically been the biggest bottleneck.
The bigger risk for the TSMC-China aspect is TSMC's planned exit of GaN foundry production by 2027. Most Chinese manufacturers still depend on TSMC-produced GaNs wafers instead of domestically produced GaN vendors due to reliability concerns. China will probably end up matching TSMC's specs for compound semiconductors, but in 4-7 years, but that implies that the Sullivan Doctrine still holds and is a loss for China.
Every other country with compound semiconductor production capabilities at scale (US, Germany, France, South Korea, Japan, Israel, Russia, India) either limits their exports or cannot export them to China without facing sanctions from other buyers (primarily Russia as India does not allowing commingling for defense vendors to India and Pakistan/China, and Russian vendors are members of India's EW and DEW program).
If a US-China War was to arise, worst case we would probably see a mass reversion back to 2018-22 level technology, which isn't the end of the world.
Additonally, the China-Taiwan situation is orthogonal to semiconductor dependency.
Anyone who is unironically saying China attacking Taiwan is a real threat (eg The Anthropic CEO quoted in the article) is either simply echoing the administration's painting of China as a geopolitical bogeyman or they're just ignorant of geopolitics, likely because they're projecting American economic imperialism onto China.
I'm glad the article dismissed this as a threat because it isn't one. The official policy of the US is the One China policy. You'll see this described as "strategic ambiguity". That's another way of saying that the official policy is simply to lie about supporting Taiwan's independence.
China is going to make their own chips. They'll just hire the right people to replicate EUV lithography. The article brought up nuclear weapons. It's a good analogy. At the end of WW2 the thinking of the US military was that the USSR would take 20+ years to get the bomb if they ever got it. It took 4 years. The gap with the hydrogen bomb was even less.
Western chauvinism in policy circles completely underestimates China's capacity to catch up in lithography. Not selling the best chips to China created a captive market for Chinese chipmakers.
I also think TSMC is being understandably cautious in not expanding their CapEx. AI companies really should focus on an economic use case for AI more than worry that foundry capacity will somehow limit a theoretical future AI use case.
> AI has a physical dependency in Taiwan that can be easily destroyed by Chinese missiles, even without an invasion
Taiwan has missiles with the range and warheads to strike the three gorges dam.
An attack by China would end very poorly for everybody. There are millions of people living in the inundation zone.
Could the chinese construct a sufficient anti-missle defence?
Obviously the actual number of missiles Taiwan has is not public, but I suspect they have enough that reliably intercepting a full barrage is not something even the us could pull off.
There are some near ready foundries in the US and in EU, not to mention South Korea. It would take a few years to catch up of course.
What I worry more about is the full lock-in of TSMC production capacity by nvidia/apple/amd/etc for their chips on their latest and greatest silicon process (aka the best in the world). There is 'no space' for performant large RISC-V implementations or other alternative (and it will require several iterations and mistakes will be made)
Tenstorrent managed to secure TSMC manufacturing capacity, I doubt many other RISC-centric fabless companies would have any issues aside from aggressive competition.
I wonder when we will see RISC-V (rva23+) large implementations, for instance for performance "desktop" at 5GHz+ on latest silicon process...
I know I can already replace my rpi3 with a linux supported out of the box RISC-V SOC board (aka, the enabling of assembly written software = no planned obsolescence from computer languages anymore, near 0-SDK).
Honest question, from non-american: what is up with all the China scare? I just can't understand it. Is it because China is socialist and we want to see capitalism winning over?