Ask HN: DDD was a great debugger – what would a modern equivalent look like?

25 pointsposted 11 hours ago
by manux81

Item id: 46759387

30 Comments

TheRoque

2 hours ago

Maybe you can have a look at RadDbg [0], as I understand the project has been bought by Epic Games recently. The goal is to make a performant debugger, from what I understand its target audience is mostly game developers, but you can use it for other programs obviously. You can see a talk of the core developer and his vision here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9_bK_WjuYY

Sadly it's windows only yet, but they have plans to port it to other platforms.

- [0]: https://github.com/EpicGamesExt/raddebugger

mort96

2 hours ago

The readme talks about plans for Linux support, but I'm guessing that's no longer on the table after the Epic acquisition? Sweeney is the single most publicly anti-Linux CEO I'm aware of.

nottorp

2 hours ago

Do you expect an IAP peddler to support free software?

mort96

2 hours ago

Yes actually: plenty of companies don't care where the money comes from, they're happy as long as there's money. Unity, the other big ad- and IAP-peddling game engine company, has pretty good Linux support.

It's weird for a company to explicitly say, "if you use this one operating system you can go F yourself, we don't want your money". (Note: this is not the same as saying "we only officially support Windows at this time, sorry". There's seething hatred in Sweeney's words.)

nottorp

an hour ago

I suppose Apple bribed him to support Macs. Who's going to bribe him to support Linux, RedHat? Canonical?

w4rh4wk5

an hour ago

May I recommend this episode of The Stand Up podcast with Ryan Fleury as guest, who is the driving force behind the rad debugger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-3gEsfEm0g

Casey also makes a good point here on why printf-debugging is still extremely popular.

Agingcoder

2 hours ago

Pernosco

Blows everything else out of the water.

https://pernos.co/ ( I’m not affiliated to them in any way, just a happy customer)

w4yai

16 minutes ago

Seems like IDA Pro does the same but 10x better

michalsustr

12 minutes ago

What are you using as a Rust debugger?

martijnvds

3 hours ago

printf("Got here, x=%u"\n", x);

jeffwass

3 hours ago

“The most effective debugging tool is still careful thought, coupled with judiciously placed print statements.”

- Brian Kernighan

db48x

an hour ago

Although that was true at the time, it was before the creation of modern omniscient debuggers like Pernosco (<https://pernos.co/>).

uyar

2 hours ago

My background is in teaching C programming at the university level and DDD was very helpful there, although not very comfortable to use. For years, I've looked for a replacement and finally found Seer and was very happy with it.

https://github.com/epasveer/seer

Interactive debugging is definitely useful when teaching but obviously teaching is a different context. But Seer is not an educational tool and I believe it will hold up in other cases as well.

w4rh4wk5

an hour ago

Have you also tried KDbg, and if so, what's the reason for picking seer over KDbg?

galkk

3 hours ago

I haven’t touched in a while, but Visual Studio’s (standalone, not code) debugger was very cool.

Also rr is impressive in theory, although it never worked on codebases that I worked on.

chrsw

11 hours ago

Something like this maybe:

https://whitebox.systems/

Doesn't seem to meet all your desired features though.

manux81

11 hours ago

Yes, that’s a good example — thanks for the link. Tools like this seem very strong at visualizing and exploring state, but they still tend to stay fairly close to the traditional “pause and inspect” model. What I keep struggling with is understanding how a particular state came to be — especially with concurrency or events that happened much earlier. That gap between state visualization and causality feels hard to bridge, and I’m not sure what the right abstraction should be yet.

gabriela_c

16 minutes ago

This doesn't sound like a particularly difficult problem for some scenarios.

It's definitely convoluted as it comes to memory obtained from the stack, but for heap allocations, a debugger could trace the returns of the allocator APIs, use that as a beginning point of some data's lifetime, and then trace any access to that address, and then gather the high-level info on the address of the reader/writer.

Global variables should also be trivial (fairly so) as you'll just need to track memory accesses to their address.

(Of course, further work is required to actually apply this.)

For variables on the stack, or registers, though, you'll possibly need heuristics which account for reusage of memory/variables, and maybe maintain a strong association with the thread this is happening in (for both the thread's allocated stack and the thread context), etc.

omnicognate

3 hours ago

Sounds like you want a time travel debugger, eg. rr.

Sophisticated live debuggers are great when you can use them but you have to be able to reproduce the bug under the debugger. Particularly in distributed systems, the hardest bugs aren't reproducible at all and there are multiple levels of difficulty below that before you get to ones that can be reliably reproduced under a live debugger, which are usually relatively easy. Not being able to use your most powerful tools on your hardest problems rather reduces their value. (Time travel debuggers do record/replay, which expands the set of problems you can use them on, but you still need to get the behaviour to happen while it's being recorded.)

Veserv

3 hours ago

Sounds like you want time travel debugging [1]. Then you can just run forwards and backwards as needed and look at the full evolution of state and causality. You usually want to use a integrated history visualization tool to make the most of that since the amount of state you are looking at is truly immense; identifying the single wrong store 17 billion instructions ago can be a pain without it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel_debugging

chrsw

11 hours ago

Here's another one

https://scrutinydebugger.com/

It's for embedded systems though, which is where I come from. In embedded we have this concept called instruction trace where every instruction executed with the target gets sent over to the host. The host can reconstruct part of what's been going on in the target system. But there's usually so much data, I've always assumed a live view is kind of impractical and only used it for offline debugging. But maybe that's not a correct assumption. I would love to see better observability in embedded systems.

MichaelRo

21 minutes ago

Modern equivalent, working on Linux with remote connection from Visual Studio Code is LLDB.

Takes some effort to configure it but beats "printf" (i.e. logging) in the end.

apaprocki

2 hours ago

Check out Binary Ninja if you haven’t. Especially if you have large binaries!

markhahn

3 hours ago

Linaro (need Allinea) DDT?

anthk

2 hours ago

Radare and friends maybe. For sure it has some graph-like options as DDD had where you could graphically see everything.

Most RE tools today will integrate a debugger (or talk to gdb).

DeathArrow

2 hours ago

I am pretty happy with the debugger from Visual Studio.