rahimnathwani
6 hours ago
It seems weird for the government to collect data useful for research, but then to gate access based on the viewpoints of potential users. This restriction doesn't support the search for truth.
Whatever people think of Lasker (Cremieux) and his views, isn't data being available to all interested parties the best way to find the truth?
The article mentions this towards the very end:
Adam Candeub, the top lawyer at the Federal Communications Commission, wrote a law review article in 2024 criticizing the N.I.H.’s discouragement of stigmatizing research. He compared it to the persecution of Galileo.
“A liberal society should support the search for truth,” Mr. Candeub wrote, “regardless of how uncomfortable and unsettling that truth turns out to be.”rustyhancock
4 hours ago
Scientists, are not quite like explorers, just venturing off in direction and see what they find.
They have interests, that align with funding, which aligns with actionable data. And they follow them.
So who would even do such research? The best you could find is some meaningless difference in mean scores that is likely swamped by environmental factors. And the fact that "race" is far fuzzier than our intuition leads us to think (it turns out we're very good at applying racial labels to people, that genetically are simply not so clear especially at the edges of categories).^*
So it's hard to fund research with no purpose, that scientists aren't particularly interested in conducting. Instead [GWAS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome-wide_association_study) studies answer more useful questions that are actionable (you can do a genetic test and calculate a risk in principle).
* I'll clarify this statement because it's a common misconception. There are clearly genetic differences between racial groups. But they are complex statsical genetics that are impossible to cleanly pin down without large levels of miscategorization. And GWAS studies are answering the question which genes are associated with cognition and disorder.
TMWNN
12 minutes ago
> So who would even do such research? The best you could find is some meaningless difference in mean scores that is likely swamped by environmental factors.
Yes, I too find it easy to avoid doing research when I assume what that research is going to find out ahead of the time.
terminalshort
4 hours ago
> So it's hard to fund research with no purpose, that scientists aren't particularly interested in conducting.
But that's not what happened. They didn't just decline to fund such research. The NIH banned it on their data set even if you had your own funding. You don't explicitly ban things that people are not interested in doing. e.g. the NIH doesn't ban using the data set to perform research on astrology. If I want to do research on the difference between Libras and Scorpios and I come up with the money, the policy is "OK, you do you."
rustyhancock
4 hours ago
I read the NIH policy and it seems quite reasonable to me.
The rule usually applied to datasets with broad consent is the surprise principle. Even if you have consent if the person is subsequently surprised by how it was used it's not informed consent.
To put it simply, how do we get samples from marginalised groups if we plan to allow to use that data for them to be marginalised?
If the NIH didn't actively oppose it how can they expect to get more participants ?
But the article is also about groups engaging in academic dishonesty to bypass NIH policy. It really makes me question their motives and that they aren't simply scientists seeking truth.
terminalshort
3 hours ago
I was responding to the statement from the article that it had explicitly banned anything to do with race, ancestry, or ethnicity. I have not read the full policy.
> To put it simply, how do we get samples from marginalised groups if we plan to allow to use that data for them to be marginalised?
You said in your previous comment above that these categories aren't useful anyway, which brings up some questions:
1. If that is the NIH's opinion, then why did they label the data with those categories?
2. If these categories are actually not useful, then why should I care if the dataset isn't balanced between members of those categories?
> But the article is also about groups engaging in academic dishonesty to bypass NIH policy. It really makes me question their motives and that they aren't simply scientists seeking truth.
To the contrary, I consider any such restriction on the topic of research to be fundamentally unscientific and I mistrust any scientist who feels an ethical obligation to comply with such political censorship.
rustyhancock
2 hours ago
It's not restricted. NIH won't allow you to use the datasets they control for it. It is practically and pragmatically reasonable for them to do that. It's also ethically sound to not let the data subjects data be used for something they wouldn't want as the data controller.
If a scientist wants to do the research then they can pursue it and find a journal to publish it in. The reputable journals are unlikely to find it of interest unless it was a huge effect size. But we know any effect size must be tiny hence the need for a huge dataset.
They'd have to take samples and basically tell the person the intension was to check if some races were genetically inferior let's see how well they do with recruitment. I wouldn't give a sample.
Or just do a GWAS study and then develop metrics for estimating risk for individuals which can make use of ethnicity.
cyanydeez
5 hours ago
Paradox of intolerance answers your dilemma.
Other answers: if placebos work, why would we restrict peoples choice and their dissemination?
Because placebos rarely are innocent in often they become avoidant measures away from empirical science.
Your view point is a local minimum in that you want to ignore societal impact. One of those impacts is using valid data to tout pseudoscientific methods.
We know GIGO but the general populace does not
You should use the samw logic ans find yourself arguing against vaccinea and herd immunity.
rahimnathwani
5 hours ago
The paradox of intolerance suggests we should (if all else fails) suppress those whose seek to suppress others.
How is that relevant? Is Lasker seeking to (let alone succeeding at) suppressing voices that disagree with his own?
He might not engage with his critics (e.g. David Bessis) but AFAICT he's not doing anything to suppress them.
cyanydeez
5 hours ago
Surely this time race science wont be used to make social policies that directly boil down to racism by visual difference.
terminalshort
4 hours ago
So if I understand correctly, your argument is:
1. This research may prove that there are significant intelligence differences by race.
2. Public knowledge of this fact could lead to discrimination on an individual level based on group membership.
3. This is bad for society.
4. Therefore we should not conduct research down this path.