Minnesota activist releases arrest video after manipulated White House version

179 pointsposted 14 days ago
by petethomas

78 Comments

Aurornis

14 days ago

The current link is basically devoid of information, but clicking through to this page shows the two pictures with a slider to move between them: https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-levy-armstrong-crying-...

The differences are not subtle

autoexec

14 days ago

Of course they darkened her skin color.

kibbul4

14 days ago

[flagged]

krapp

14 days ago

from where? What was the point at which law enforcement was putting out propaganda making suspects look whiter than they are?

kibbul4

14 days ago

[flagged]

krapp

14 days ago

[flagged]

eudamoniac

14 days ago

Come on now. This is a readily observable phenomenon; everyone notices it on both sides of the spectrum. It doesn't deserve your aggressive polemic.

From Wiktionary, "The observation that the longer it takes the media to identify a mass shooter in the United States, the less likely it is to be a white male."

nneonneo

14 days ago

Don’t worry! According to the White House, it’s just a meme! Making up fake news is totally fine as long as you can say you’re memeing!

The WH using social media (X, Pravda Social) for official communication is highly deliberate - they get to declare post-hoc what is actually real communication and what is “just memes”. Of course it won’t make any difference to people amplifying the content. If the WH had to stick to traditional outlets for news they wouldn’t have this fig leaf to hide behind.

the_gipsy

14 days ago

I remember reading an article about how terrible AI could be in the hands of a regime like China's. What a time to be alive, I guess.

user

14 days ago

[deleted]

bdangubic

14 days ago

all this time we were “fighting China” and now we got China… except nothing gets done :)

salawat

14 days ago

Evil transcends all borders, mate, and it all looks/sounds the same ultimately.

mattnewton

14 days ago

I think we're never going to be able to have robust ai detection, and current models are as bad as they'll ever be. Instead we really need to have the ability to sign images on cameras that show these are the bits that came off this hardware unedited, that professional news outlets can verify.

But that's going to cost money to make and market all these new cameras and I just don't know how we incentivize or pay for this, so we're left unable to trust any images and video in the near future. I can only think of technical solutions and not the social changes that need to happen before the tech is wanted and adopted.

breve

14 days ago

Sony cameras can sign still images and videos to vouch that they are not AI generated:

https://authenticity.sony.net/camera/en-us/index.html

https://www.sony.eu/presscentre/sony-launches-camera-verify-...

Ideally it'd become an open standard supported by all manufacturers. Which is what they're trying to do:

https://c2pa.org/

mattnewton

14 days ago

Thank you, this is fantastic to know! I think we have to normalize requiring this or similar standards for news, it will go a long way.

Ideally we would have a similar attestation from most people's cameras (on their smartphones) but that's a much harder problem to also support with 3p camera apps.

2OEH8eoCRo0

14 days ago

More like I won't trust anything that doesn't come from a press photographer.

cmxch

14 days ago

And what will make them more trustworthy?

ndsipa_pomu

14 days ago

Their career prospects would vanish if caught doctoring images with AI. Unfortunately, the same can't be said of governmental employees.

93po

14 days ago

it doesnt really matter if you can just take a photo of an AI image that's been printed out

mattnewton

14 days ago

That will look like a photo of a printout though. Seems easier to just hack the hardware to get it to sign arbitrary images instead.

93po

13 days ago

ok but then the conversation switches from "was this actually taken from a camera" to "is this a photo of a printout" and we're not really any further along in being able to establish trust in what we're seeing, my point is the goal posts will always get moved because unless we see literally anything in person these days, we can't really trust in it

throwaway89201

14 days ago

This sounds like a good idea on its face, but it will have the effect of both legitimizing altered photos and delegitimizing photos of actual events.

You will need camera DRM with a hardware security module down all the way to the image sensor, where the hardware is in the hands of the attacker. Even when that chain is unbroken, you'll need to detect all kinds of tricks where the incoming photons themselves are altered. In the simplest case: a photo of a photo.

If HDCP has taught anything, it's that vendors of consumer products cannot implement such a secure chain at all, with ridiculous security vulnerabilities for years. HDCP has been given up and has become mostly irrelevant, perhaps except for the criminal liability it places on 'breaking' it. Vendors are also pushed to rely on security by obscurity, which will make such vulnerabilities harder to find for researchers than for attackers.

If you have half of such a 'signed photos' system in place, it will become easier to dismiss photos of actual events on the basis that they're unsigned. If a camera model or security chip shared by many models turns out to be broken, or a new photo-of-a-photo trick becomes known, a huge amount of photos produced before that, become immediately suspect. If you gatekeep (the proper implementations of) these features only to professional or expensive models, citizen journalism will be disincentivized.

But even more importantly: if you choose to rely on technical measures that are poorly understood by the general public (and that are likely to blow up in your face), you erode a social system of trust that already is in place, which is journalism. Although the rise of social media, illiteracy and fascism tends to suggest otherwise, journalistic chain of custody of photographic records mainly works fine. But only if we keep maintaining and teaching that system.

direwolf20

14 days ago

Then you can have a signed picture of a screen showing an AI image. And the government will have a secret version of OpenAI that has a camera signature.

datsci_est_2015

14 days ago

But especially when a party has been shown to alter photos with evidence even for “memetic” reasons, they’ve poisoned their own reliability. As far as I’m concerned the DOJ us no longer a reliable source of evidence until a serious purge of leadership due to their intimate connection with the parties who posted this edited photo.

user

14 days ago

[deleted]

matthewaveryusa

14 days ago

realpolitik time folks:

First do a left-right on the link that Aurornis posted [1]. Notice the extra fat in the chin, the elongated ear, the enlarged mouth and nose, the frizzlier hair, the lower shirt cut.

You hate it. You think, intellectually, that this shouldn't work and surely no one would have the gall to so brazenly do this without the fear of being caught and shamed. And then you think, well once the truth is revealed that there will be some introspection and self-reflection on being tricked, and that maybe being tricked here means being tricked elsewhere.

Well someone, in an emotionless room, min-maxed the outcomes and computed that the expected value from such an action was positive.

And here we are.

https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-levy-armstrong-crying-...

xboxnolifes

13 days ago

There is no need to min-max. There is never a large scale introspection after a media correction. Most people will never see the correction and will still believe what they saw first, years later, if not for the rest of their life.

Or they do hear about it, maybe a few days or a week later, but they dismiss it because its old news at the point and not worth thinking about to them.

Truth is, most people are never really thinking most of the time. They're reacting in the moment and maybe forming a rationale for their action after the fact.

knowsuchagency

14 days ago

Why was this flagged?

zahlman

14 days ago

[flagged]

f1restar

14 days ago

You either haven't seen the post, or are being disingenuous.

In case some readers haven't seen it, the altered image (crying & wailing, instead of calm & resolute) was posted by the official white house account with the following overlay text:

---

ARRESTED FAR-LEFT AGITATOR NEKIMA LEVY ARMSTRONG FOR ORCHESTRATING CHURCH RIOTS IN MINNESOTA

---

The post is a reply to one made by the same account half an hour earlier, with the following text:

---

MINNESOLA ARRESTS Attorney General Pamela Bondi @AGPamBondi

Minutes ago at my direction, @HSI_HQ and @FBI agents executed an arrest in Minnesota.

So far, we have arrested Nekima Levy Armstrong, who allegedly played a key role in organizing the coordinated attack on Cities Church in St. Paul, Minnesota.

We will share more updates as they become available.

Listen loud and clear: WE DO NOT TOLERATE ATTACKS ON PLACES OF WORSHIP.

UPDATE: A second arrest has been made at my direction. Chauntyll Louisa Allen has been taken into custody. More to come.

WE WILL PROTECT OUR HOUSES OF WORSHIP

---

Obviously a joke, and we're stupid for not seeing it as one, eh?

This manipulative crap may have worked when you were in high school, but any adult with a "sense of humour and critical thinking skill" (as you put it in your other comment), would see through the ruse.

It's funny, because this exact way of thinking is what got us into this mess in the first place. Obviously he was joking when he said he would do all those terrible things!

zahlman

13 days ago

> Obviously a joke, and we're stupid for not seeing it as one, eh?

... Do you understand what mockery is?

The "joke" is distorting her image. The reality is that she was arrested.

The story is trying to present things as if distorting her image is somehow misrepresenting what happened.

But she was in fact arrested, and nobody disputes that.

The sense of humour and critical thinking skill is what allows one to recognize the alteration of the footage. Paying attention to the surrounding context makes it clear that the footage is altered from a real event, and not made up entirely.

I don't need to see the post to understand these things. (And neither does anything you posted disagree with my analysis.)

I am not being disingenuous. I accepted that the footage is altered. Because it doesn't matter.

> Obviously he was joking when he said he would do all those terrible things!

What "terrible things" are you referring to?

As the press release explains, there was a coordinated disruption of the church service, they said they would arrest her for it, and they did.

And as the video makes clear, the disruption was a violation of the church attendees' rights. The church is private property and the protesters were trespassing. They did not leave when asked. They harassed innocent people for no clear reason.

It is in fact perfectly reasonable for the administration to be saying things like

> WE DO NOT TOLERATE ATTACKS ON PLACES OF WORSHIP.

because they shouldn't.

Imagine if it had been a mosque instead of a church; if it had been Tucker Carlson instead of Don Lemon; if it had been about some political cause you disagree with instead of one you agree with. Would you be reacting the same way? I don't think you would.

TFYS

14 days ago

The government "just mocking people" is already disgusting behavior that belongs to failed states, but it's not even that, it was clearly just propaganda to make the opposition look weak. If it was a "meme" they should've said so in the post before being called out.

zahlman

13 days ago

> The government "just mocking people" is already disgusting behavior that belongs to failed states

Trump is also a citizen.

> it was clearly just propaganda to make the opposition look weak

And?

It comes across that you're upset that something you find in poor taste happened to target someone you agree with.

> If it was a "meme" they should've said so in the post before being called out.

Why would they say something that's obvious to people with common sense?

28304283409234

14 days ago

Except that now our fancy silicon valley tech is used. So we can discuss the tech, but not the social impact of it.

xrd

14 days ago

Can I opt out of using my taxes to create memes? If Trump wants to use his cryptocurrency to shill for Truth Social I suppose I can't really complain. But, why do I have to pay for the department of meme wars?

user

14 days ago

[deleted]

cmxch

14 days ago

[flagged]

camillomiller

14 days ago

[flagged]

datsci_est_2015

14 days ago

> This is not who you are.

This is exactly who we are now. We are all complicit. Anger is a valid response.

gizmov21

14 days ago

What, pray tell, can we do?

Tens of thousands of people are protesting and some getting arrested, anyone with a voice is doing what they can to sway public opinion.

Our higher courts are compromised (and feckless at times even when used correctly), and the police help ICE. And a large number of Americans do, in fact, want this. Others don’t care until it hits them personally.

So what specifically are people to do, like myself, who live in an unaffected area and who’s politicians are in fact speaking out against this?

autoexec

14 days ago

> What, pray tell, can we do?

Vote better for a start. The amount of support this administration has is still way too high considering everything they've done and are doing. It's shaken my faith in humanity a bit to see how many of the people around me don't seem to actually value humanity.

psadauskas

14 days ago

And most Americans are just trying to survive, working 3 gig jobs for barely minimum wage, while the cost of everything is skyrocketing.

zahlman

14 days ago

[flagged]

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF

14 days ago

zahlman

13 days ago

That's the FBI supporting them, not "the police", which I understood in context to refer to state LEO.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF

13 days ago

> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

It's surely reasonable to assume they meant something that is factually accurate. Using "the police" to refer to law enforcement in general is common; additionally, the alleged crimes are in the purview of the FBI. There is ample context to interpret their words more strongly.

zahlman

12 days ago

Okay, but saying that the FBI supports ICE is not remarkable. The point of the comment is to make the case that something extraordinary is going on. It is not unreasonable for federal agencies to support each other.

Anyway, to be clear, it legitimately didn't occur to me that by "the police" the other poster could possibly mean the FBI; therefore it wasn't within the world of "plausible interpretations" I could consider for that comment.

user

14 days ago

[deleted]

defrost

14 days ago

Indeed.

With all the deepest respect toward the US citizens I know, have talked to, and those that don't support the current administration ...

Theres's now _zero_ respect for the US.

Yours sincerely, long time five eyes allies.

mvdtnz

14 days ago

This is who they are. Source: reality.

user

14 days ago

[deleted]

anal_reactor

14 days ago

[flagged]

idibiks

14 days ago

Your phrasing of the reality of democracy and voting is basically a less-polite version of where political science has been on the topic for 80ish years. The first half or so of that they spent trying to figure out some way that the stupidity and ignorance naturally balances out into… something that’s not scary. Law of averages, wisdom-of-the-crowd sorts of stuff.

They eventually (more or less) gave up, finding all their efforts at comfortable explanations unsupportable. Nope, it’s just luck, momentum, and the difficult of intentionally directing large chaotic systems keeping things tolerably sane. It’s, in fact, very scary and it’s astounding it works at all.

CamperBob2

14 days ago

It’s, in fact, very scary and it’s astounding it works at all.

It no longer does. Social media was the tipping point.

Religion wasn't enough to break democracy, newspapers weren't enough, radio wasn't enough, TV was almost enough... but now, with social media as the proverbial last straw, the bug is fully exploited, completely unfixable, and likely fatal.

idibiks

14 days ago

Oh, I agree. I think it more likely than not that we have invented a combo of technologies that produce an environment in which liberal democracy cannot exist outside maybe smallish countries with tight controls on incoming media from outside (so, also fairly tight foreign capital ownership rules).

The medium is the message, and I think the “message” of the global Web + social media + (now) generative AI may not include liberal democracy.

autoexec

14 days ago

> turns out, majority of voters are dumb fucks.

In fairness, many people have been working hard for decades to turn as many people into illiterate dumb fucks as possible. We didn't get here accidentally.

kibbul4

14 days ago

[flagged]

direwolf20

14 days ago

Why do you suppose they didn't?

lostmsu

14 days ago

> It's not that big of a deal.

kibbul4

14 days ago

[flagged]

direwolf20

14 days ago

I don't think they'd ever answer. They'd probably block you on X if you asked. Why do you think that is?

kibbul4

14 days ago

[flagged]

defrost

14 days ago

It's blatant lying and misrepresentation by officials in a public office.

Sackable offence in many countries.

Principally those countries with a regard for law, order, fairness, transparency, justice, etc.

The question really is, why would this be acceptable in the USofA by any administration.

camillomiller

14 days ago

You are a dangerous person, and part of why America is at the point it is. You are the degenerate. Disgusting. This woman is a civil rights ACTIVIST, arrested with NO CHARGES, for fuck's sake

camillomiller

14 days ago

The fact that this community is thoroughly downvoting this conversation because it’s seen as political is quite a clear sign of how morally rotten tech people have become. Get out of your cocoons, cowards.

burnt-resistor

14 days ago

Corruption and fealty run deep, and so does Democratic impotency (except for about 100 clean ones, but it's not even close to enough to make a difference) because their corporate masters desire it.