House vote keeps federal "kill switch" vehicle mandate

115 pointsposted 15 days ago
by mikece

80 Comments

unstyledcontent

15 days ago

Here in Minneapolis, there have been multiple anecdotal reports of ICE being able to remotely unlock cars, disable them, and even open windows. Whether its true, its certainly seems possible.

Its made me very concerned about public safety if we allow our government to have this power. I actually believe being able to own and use a vehicle freely should be protected under the 2nd amendment.

Im picturing a world where the US could mass disable vehicles based on the owners score in their fancy new palantir database. We should have the right to flee danger and use a vehicle for that.

I also think the second amendment should be applied encryption for the same reason. Encryption is essential to the people's ability to mount a defense against tyranny.

OptionOfT

15 days ago

Remote unlock is on many cars via an API.

It's the same API being used on your phone to remote start / unlock / open windows etc.

It's not unlikely to think that ICE has mandated these companies to corporate.

foogazi

15 days ago

> Its made me very concerned about public safety if we allow our government to have this power.

ICE says it can legally enter homes without a warrant

So we’re beyond concern now

gruez

15 days ago

>ICE says it can legally enter homes without a warrant

Source for this claim, besides the usual exemptions that are available to all law enforcement (ie. exigent circumstances)?

kemayo

15 days ago

Here's a representative news article about it (WaPo because they were first in the search results): https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2026/01/22/ice-me... (paywall-avoiding: https://archive.is/bsdv9)

They've come up with a memo saying that non-judicial warrants can let them break in. This has historically been very much not allowed.

Edit: As a quick explanation, this is more or less a separation-of-powers thing. The rule has been that for the executive to enter someone's home they need a warrant from a judge, a member of the judicial branch. They now say that an "administrative warrant" is enough, issued by an immigration judge -- but immigration judges are just executive branch employees, so this is saying that the executive can decide on its own when it wants to break into your house.

bhickey

15 days ago

They wrote a memo saying they could.

baby_souffle

15 days ago

> Source for this claim, besides the usual exemptions that are available to all law enforcement (ie. exigent circumstances)?

Context and discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGr-yWEu0hc

The TL/DR: administrative warrant vs an actual "signed off by a judge" warrant

foogazi

15 days ago

Source for the exigent circumstances exemption ?

NoMoreNicksLeft

10 days ago

>I also think the second amendment should be applied encryption for the same reason. Encryption is essential to the people's ability to mount a defense against tyranny.

The second amendment only protects the right to arms. Firearms certainly, others as well (swords, if anyone gave a shit about them, body armor for sure, perhaps even others not normally considered to fall under its protection like grenades). If the Constitution protects encryption or un-pre-sabotaged vehicles, the 2nd amendment isn't the portion that does so.

_DeadFred_

15 days ago

The government will soon be able to geofence areas to keep vehicles out of. Wonder if you will get a warning as you get close or if they will just cut out.

"Warning, you are approaching a closed zone. Stop your advance. Compliance is mandatory. Mobility privileges for this vehicle will be revoked"

B1FIDO

15 days ago

One time, I was in a shopping mall and I had filled my cart at Target. I checked out, and proceeded to the parking lot where I was supposed to meet a Waymo. I had arranged for it to pick me up in the designated "Ride Share/Taxi Pickup Area" which was quite near the Target, but across the "street" and next to the cluster of bus stops.

I passed an obvious and ominous sign that indicated the border of the "shopping cart zone" and immediately my cart's wheels locked up! I was mortified, because I knew it'd do that! But my Waymo's over there, man! What was I supposed to do about it?

Obviously, Target has every right to corral their carts in places where they can go retrieve them. Theft is a huge, huge problem. But I was also constrained in pickup areas and I had figured, innocently, that the "Designated Ride Share" zone was the correct place to meet a Waymo with groceries.

So I had to bail everything out of the cart, and carry by hand. I learned my lesson. Only drop the Waymo pin someplace where my cart won't be kill-switched!

NoMoreNicksLeft

10 days ago

There was an app linked here a few months back that unlocks them from your iphone. I haven't had a chance to try it yet.

lp0_on_fire

15 days ago

That exits essentially for aircraft today, albeit not automated. Try flying your little Cessna too close to the capitol mall or any number of sites in the world. You’ll very quickly and very unceremoniously be intercepted by other aircraft with big guns telling you to get the hell out.

K0balt

15 days ago

It only works Like that because fences are hard to build at 5000 Feet. Remote disabling vehicles is a very different thing.

SoftTalker

15 days ago

Some of this is over-the-top paranoia. If ICE wants to get into your car, they'll just break the window.

It's been very long established that nobody has a "right" to operate a motor vehicle. It's something you are permitted to do under the terms of a license, and it's fairly regulated (though not as much as in some other countries).

davorak

15 days ago

> Some of this is over-the-top paranoia. If ICE wants to get into your car, they'll just break the window.

Then when I get to my car I can see the broken window and report it or at least know someone broke into my car. With remote entry law enforcement or ice can get in and out potentially without notice.

Just because police/ice/thieves/etc can break down my door and enter my house does not mean I am on board with giving any of them a key.

baubino

15 days ago

> It's been very long established that nobody has a "right" to operate a motor vehicle.

You do have a right to ownership though if it’s paid in full and you have the title. If I fully own my vehicle but someone else can control or disable it remotely then they are tampering with my personal property.

HaZeust

15 days ago

"Mechanics lien" are a thing, and the government has plenty of machinations to avoid someone from registering their car or updating a registration, which does have case law for being an action prior to taking someone's vehicle as an asset seizure. Civil asset forfeiture also has extensive case law for being used with vehicles.

When it comes to brass text and if the chips are down, your right for vehicle ownership is HEAVILY skewed state-side if they don't want you to have one. Whether it should be or not, and regardless of how much an individual's mobility and freedom is reliant on them owning a car in modern America, it's still a de-facto "privilege" rather than a "right".

colechristensen

15 days ago

>It's been very long established that nobody has a "right" to operate a motor vehicle. It's something you are permitted to do under the terms of a license, and it's fairly regulated (though not as much as in some other countries).

Sure you do, in private nobody can be prevented. You need a license and insurance to drive on public roads.

lp0_on_fire

15 days ago

I find this a very odd and non compelling argument

Just now many people have a) private land and b) private land in sufficient quantity and state that you can actually drive a car on it?

direwolf20

15 days ago

ICE has to be near your car to shoot the tires out, but not to remote disable.

tim-tday

15 days ago

Having vehicle override would be an extremely concerning capability. (If confirmed)

Your take on “rights” if wrong to the point of insanity. You literally don’t know what rights are and should stop talking.

ndsipa_pomu

15 days ago

> I actually believe being able to own and use a vehicle freely should be protected under the 2nd amendment.

Driving is a privilege, not a right. People are required to demonstrate a level of skill in order to not hurt and kill other road users too much and there are other considerations as well. I, for one, do not welcome people driving with compromised or no vision, or being subject to occasional loss of control whilst having a seizure etc.

I also don't think that it's a good idea to allow a person to continue driving if they've previously used their vehicle as a deliberate weapon.

NedF

15 days ago

[dead]

SilverElfin

15 days ago

[flagged]

quantumfissure

15 days ago

[flagged]

nilamo

15 days ago

Just because we were a bad country in the past, does not mean we should continue to be a bad one today.

singleshot_

15 days ago

> Wait till you hear about a kid named Elian Gonzalez from 2000. One of the most famous examples

A brief fact check: Elián González was and is not a US citizen, nor was he the child of US citizens, nor was he arrested by ICE, nor was the raid that resulted in his capture performed without a warrant.

I might wait to hear about him until I encounter someone with more accurate information.

DangitBobby

15 days ago

People tend to believe that the direction of progress should be forward, I guess.

mmooss

15 days ago

Finding some precedents doesn't address the major changes. Do you really dispute there have been major changes in executive branch behavior?

> Wait till you hear about a kid named Elian Gonzalez

Elian's mother died at sea, trying to reach the US from Cuba with Elian. Elian's father sought to bring the child back to Cuba, but an uncle in Miami refused to surrender custody. Obviously, barring something unusual, a father has custody of their child and the INS, courts, and Department of Justice agreed. There was an extensive legal process and also mediation.

It became a partisan political issue and after all that the uncle still refused to surrender Elian. Law enforcement forcibly removed the child and gave custody to the father.

I don't see how that is related to the current warrantless home invasion policy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli%C3%A1n_Gonz%C3%A1lez

IAmBroom

15 days ago

"BSAB" Fallacy detected.

scotty79

15 days ago

> if we allow our government

This is so tiresome when people who don't have a single tank think they are in a position to allow people with tanks to do this or that.

Things happen because their value for people in power exceeds the value of your consent. And you have fewer and fewer ways to make your consent any more valuable to cross the threshold of relevancy.

I know it's an attractive illusion to believe that people have a say. But it's time to shake it off because this veil is one of the things used for control.

Ancapistani

15 days ago

You underestimate both the capacity of an armed citizenry and the hardware that we have at our disposal.

There are in fact privately owned tanks in the US.

larkost

15 days ago

This is misleading. While there are privately owned tanks, they are all old, and lack any weapons (other than as a battering ram).

They likely could cause a lot of trouble for a local police force, but would not stand up to any infantry force in the world.

So in an actual conflict with the U.S. government, none of those tanks would be more than symbolic. And whole a general gorilla insurrection in the U.S. would be nasty, examples like Wako demonstrate that even mid-sized stands would be severely overwhelmed.

The whole idea that a Second-Amendment rebellion in the U.S., absent the military joining on the side of the rebellion, is just a fantasy.

psunavy03

15 days ago

Tell that to the Mujahedeen, the Taliban, the Viet Cong, Mao, and George Washington.

Just because the government has tanks does not mean "we have tanks and nukes, therefore we'll win" has proven true across military history.

Hasz

15 days ago

The US has lost multiple wars to goat herders in pickup trucks with small arms.

As Ukraine has demonstrated, a shaped charge and consumer drone is highly effective against even heavy mechanized armor. ERA doesn't work well for multiple hits, and drones and HMX/RDX are cheap.

user

15 days ago

[deleted]

scotty79

15 days ago

Tell your history lesson to a Reaper drone. You can see how modern version of people's insurgency could look like in modern Gaza. This is exactly how would citizens vs. US play out. With Palantir painting the targets on the appropriate backs and declaring anyone in the blast radius as domestic terrorist.

shrubble

15 days ago

So imagine you attend a planned protest at the state capitol.

You drive and when within 3 miles your car dies.

You can start it again and drive away, turning around and leaving, but if you go further towards the capitol it dies again.

The next day the press reports that the planned protest was very sparsely attended.

pjc50

15 days ago

Do protests have parking?

scarecrowbob

15 days ago

Our local municipality has (in the distant past) made all of the business park on-street parking into "no parking" zones. They also heavily enforce parking regulations in the area during actions...

xethos

13 days ago

Wanting to discourage motorists being around where a massive group of people are expected to gather is reasonable. It's why streets will close for parades and parties. You're turning something designed to protect protestors into a conspiracy to scuttle a protest

pseudalopex

15 days ago

Cities have parking. And passengers can exit a car without the driver.

ben_w

13 days ago

I've walked from the San Jose railway station to "The" Cupertino Hotel. 8.6 miles. I don't recommend it, the sidewalks were not consistently on the same side of the road, the heat was oppressive even in January, and even just the final crossing before the hotel itself was terrifying despite the presence of pedestrian lights. My experiences elsewhere in the US are similarly pedestrian-hostile over what I consider to be short distances.

How will "passengers" being different people to "drivers" help, when most people have their phones on them at all times and can be traced, and it's the vehicle rather than any person in it which may (or may not) have an engine kill-switch?

lapetitejort

15 days ago

Bicycles do not have software to install a kill switch. They do not have license plates to be read by surveillance cameras. They do not require costly insurance to legally ride. They are not powered by fossil fuels. Buy a bike. Learn to maintain it. Advocate for safe biking infrastructure in your area.

iamnothere

15 days ago

Sure, buy a bike. AND buy an older (but maintainable) vehicle for hauling, transporting multiple people, and traveling long distances. It’s not either or.

horsawlarway

15 days ago

Entirely this.

I have a wonderful cargo bike (urban arrow - splurge purchase for my 35th birthday and second kid) - I use it for most in-city transportation tasks, including picking up kids from daycare/school, groceries, trips to restaurants, etc.

I also have a 2011 truck with ~200k miles on it. It's well take care of, and shows no signs of stopping any time soon. It hauls stuff from home improvement stores, help family move, and takes us on vacation.

I've been debating getting bumper stickers for each of them along the lines of:

"My other ebike is a truck" - for the bike

and

"My other truck is an ebike" - for the truck

ErroneousBosh

15 days ago

I wish I had the use for a cargo bike. They're so cool.

bluGill

15 days ago

I had such an older vehicle until a couple weeks ago when the fuel tank supports rusted to the point the tank wasn't supported. There was just more maintenance needed than I had time to do - it would cost about what I paid for a modern 3 year old vehicle just to get it running and who knows what it will need next year from parts I wouldn't replace. (the new car is also electric so much cheaper to drive, though it doesn't have the capacity of the 1 ton truck it replaced so I'm stuck when I need that)

mhurron

15 days ago

Bicycles are also not a viable replacement for almost all the uses of a vehicle. None of this advice is useful.

uriegas

15 days ago

Transportation influences urban development. That is why most houses have a garage. There is no such thing as private transport (streets are public). Transportation has been heavily centralized since the New Deal. The bicycle was okay for most people living in cities in the 30s, now it is not because the government has favored the car infrastructure over the last decades. I think we need to start with not letting government develop their big infrastructure projects which are not resilient. Advocating for the use of bicycles might make sense in some places yet bicycle infrastructure is required.

wincy

15 days ago

I dunno, I live in what most people would call peak Suburbia and have all sorts of bike trails I didn’t even know existed until I got the electric assisted bike, I can range 5 miles away from my house in any direction without having to be on any major roads, and have a trailer for doing grocery shopping. I went 15 miles away and back one time but took quite awhile. All the grocery stores I frequent are within this range. When it’s warm out, I use my bike for probably 90% of my trips out of the house.

alistairSH

15 days ago

Beg to differ, they're viable for basically all local use cases...

Groceries? Yep. School? Yep. Commuting? Yep. Etc.

They aren't viable for hauling multi-ton loads, or covering long distances, that's about it.

recursive

15 days ago

Almost all? I think most car trips could have been bike trips.

_verandaguy

15 days ago

What?

A vehicle (presumably a car, since bikes are vehicles too) gets you and your stuff from point A to point B. Bikes do that too, though at a smaller scale.

If your commute or your errands aren't excessively long or require the use of a controlled-access highway, a bike's a perfectly fine alternative. The limiting factors are seasonal road or bike path maintenance and the discipline of other road users.

dlcarrier

15 days ago

A city near me (Davis, CA) requires all bicycles to have a license and can confiscate unlicensed bicycles.

wahern

15 days ago

As of 2023 municipalities and counties can no longer mandate bicycle registration. (See https://law.justia.com/codes/california/code-veh/division-16... as amended by sec. 7 at https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...) Though universities, like UC Davis, might still be able to require it for bikes on campus.

I hadn't heard of the requirement before. Mandatory registration originally seems to have been intended to address bike theft. All bicycles sold in California must have a serial number. A significant number of cities (most?) had ordinances requiring registration. But few people knew about it and even fewer registered their bikes.

digiown

14 days ago

I'm puzzled why there is so little emphasis on prioritizing bikes and other means of non-licensed transport among libertarians. Driving consents you to various things like forced ID checks, drug tests, and sometimes searches, and cars are relatively easy to track down compared to humans. In effect, car-centrism reduces civil liberties as it necessitates licensing for participating in society. And no, privatizing everything will not improve it. It will just make it worse since you'd be forced to allow insurance companies to track you to be allowed into private roads, etc.

ivansmf

15 days ago

The existence of a kill switch plus tracking in legislation very likely means the manufacturers wanted to track and sell user data and needed a scapegoat to avoid customer backlash. I would profoundly surprised if we don't find a lobbyist at the bottom of this.

Ancalagon

15 days ago

I think the bigger incentive was repos, but this was considered a side-benefit.

tmaly

15 days ago

Imagine driving in a remote road on a cold night, no cell signal, a deer crosses the road and you swerve to avoid it. The car thinks your drunk and kills the car.

You're stuck, no cell signal, good chance of hypothermia.

ErroneousBosh

15 days ago

A bigger, real-world problem is that cars with lane-keeping assist will steer you back towards the deer.

Some of the earlier EVs I tried had lane-keeping assist so brutal that it was like trying to steer a car with a broken power steering pump belt, if it didn't want you to change lanes - genuinely dangerous.

The Kia EV I tried a few weeks ago just felt like it was tramlining a bit when I changed lanes without indicating (no real need to indicate, on a completely empty road).

thegrim000

15 days ago

I was visiting my parent's home recently and driving their new car. Was driving down a road and there was some debris in my lane, so I started to steer to the outside of the lane to avoid hitting it, and the car decided to apply counter steering input to keep me in my lane, pushing me back towards the debris, ignoring my commanded steering input. The fact that stuff like this exists and is common now and is wildly accepted is absolutely insane to me.

kittikitti

15 days ago

In my car, I regularly get a notice that I'm not being attentive and that I should go for a coffee break. It's never right and my best guess is that it's always on a straight highway road for more than 15 minutes where I'm not moving the wheel very much. I don't think this kill switch is a good idea and might attract unnecessary attention from law enforcement who might ding me for something completely unrelated (going 6mph above speed limit).

cucumber3732842

15 days ago

My Japanese coworker's Japanese car consistently insists my coworker is asleep.

I think it's hilarious because presumably someone in an office somewhere in Japan was told it wasn't working on white people and said "you want it to work on white people, fine I'll crank it to 11." But I also didn't spend $50k on it so that probably makes it easier.

dfajgljsldkjag

15 days ago

I have heard stories in Minneapolis about ICE remotely unlocking cars and opening windows. This seems technically possible to me. It makes me worry about public safety if the government has this control. I imagine a future where the government disables cars based on a score in a Palantir database. We need the right to use a car to escape danger. I also think encryption is important for defense against tyranny. The Second Amendment should protect encryption too.

direwolf20

15 days ago

Ha! The government still classifies encryption as a munition, which means you have a constitutional right to own it. Nice!

bluGill

15 days ago

The devil is in the details. The democrats for this (that didn't vote for this) need to change the existing law so it has strong privacy requirements. Right now the law is that regulations must be created - but what those regulations are is up to whatever bureaucrat decides to make them: they could be good or bad.

4d4m

15 days ago

Very gross, overstepping, and creepy.

exabrial

15 days ago

> A Republican attempt to cut off federal funding tied to vehicle “kill switch” enforcement failed in the House this week, leaving intact a law directing the Department of Transportation to develop mandatory impaired-driving prevention systems in new vehicles.

carimura

15 days ago

Maybe we should pass laws to ban driving. Then nobody will get hurt!

avidiax

15 days ago

I'd prefer something with a slightly more libertarian bent:

The hardware is required in new cars. It's illegal to make it report false values or for someone other than the driver to record. When you press the start button, an LED shines into your skin and records fingerprint hash, and blood alcohol. This data is recorded/reported only when a public road has been entered or crossed, and erased from local storage in 24 hours.

The reporting is optional. You can turn it off. You set it up to report to your insurance company. If you don't, your insurance rates will probably rise.

What does society get out of this? People are strongly encouraged not to drink and drive. They get a clear and unambiguous signal if they are over the legal limit or not. We get some insurance data about how many people are drinking and driving nonetheless, and their actual accident rates. Insurance rates can be higher for people at higher risk, and lower for those who are not. There's no emergency situation where someone can't activate their car. Drivers' "freedom" to drive without insurance or without historical monitoring isn't infringed. You can still drive drunk on private property without consequence.

We could probably also partially do away with constructive DUI (DUI where you are drunk, but asleep in the vehicle and in possession of the keys). You can set a maximum startup BAC in the car computer. You can lower it, effective in 8 hours. Your sober self can agree that future you shouldn't drive drunk, and even if you sleep in your car, the police can't show that you were in control of the vehicle.

direwolf20

15 days ago

Wouldn't it have to be opt-in, and opt-in to buy, to be libertarian?

avidiax

15 days ago

I wouldn't describe myself as libertarian. To make a libertarian strawman, such a strawman might claim that all safety features in cars ought to be provided by the free market. Of course, the predictable outcome is that most people won't prioritize safety in cars, so cars that spend their production budget on non-safety features will outsell those that spend on safety features, leading to at best a niche market for safety cars.

So no, I don't think any libertarian is OK with being forced to do almost anything, in principle. The very idea that you'd need to wear seatbelts or have a license or be compelled to have insurance or not have an open bottle of vodka in your cup holder is anathema. The free market should simply operate through the courts and put those that can't drink responsibly and cover the damage they cause into debtors prisons, to continue the strawman.

I would actually prefer much stricter enforcement of insurance and licensing laws, akin to say, the UK or Germany. I don't think you need hardware interlocks to do it, but you would have to have police willing to actually pull over people with fake license plates or missing insurance. That is not the case in much of California.

antibull

15 days ago

These people are truly worse than the novel 1984 predicted. They will stop at nothing short of slavery. They must be our master at any and all costs. This is a war on freedom and the enemy is from within.