A4 Paper Stories

387 pointsposted a month ago
by blenderob

102 Comments

Fiveplus

a month ago

Nice! The author touches on the area properties and here's the most practical life hack derived from the standard I personally use. It uses the relationship between size and mass.

Because A0 is defined as having an area of exactly 1 square meter, the paper density (GSM or grams per square meter) maps directly to the weight of the sheet.

>A0 = 1 meter square.

>Standard office paper = 80 gsm

>Therefore, one sheet of A0 = 80 grams.

>Since A4 is 1/16th of an A0, a single sheet of standard A4 paper weighs 5 grams.

I rarely need to use a scale for postage. If I have a standard envelope (~5g) and 3 sheets of paper (15g), I know I'm at 20g total. It turns physical shipping logistics into simple integer arithmetic. The elegance of the metric system is that it makes the properties of materials discoverable through their definitions.

rags2riches

a month ago

The 5 grams per sheet of common printer paper has certainly proven handy once or twice in some of my interactions in the informal economy.

tastyfreeze

a month ago

Same for the US 5 cent coin. Defined mass of 5 grams.

pvillano

a month ago

Paper's uniform mass per area makes it useful calibrating very tiny scales. 1mm² of 80 gsm paper will weigh about 80 micrograms.

"Measure the mass of an eyelash with a DIY microbalance" by Applied Science https://youtu.be/ta7nlkI5K5g

ctxc

a month ago

TIL GSM is just g/sq m. Like duh, feel so stupid xD

holowoodman

a month ago

It's not you who should feel stupid.

The person deciding to use nonstandard "GSM" as a unit instead of the proper "g/m²" needs to feel stupid...

snow_flake

a month ago

Oh nice, that is a neat trick! One small nitpick (that makes no difference): The side lengths of the ISO Ax formats are rounded to the next mm, so actually the A0-format has an area of 0.999949m^2

orthoxerox

a month ago

Not to the next, to the nearest, otherwise it would have to be slightly larger than 1m^2.

wolfi1

a month ago

that reminds me of an old joke: how doe the postal services make their profit? I don't get it. - Ah, that's easy. How much wieght may letters have? - 20g - And how much weight do the average letters have? - About 6g. - See? That's their profit

bmicraft

a month ago

I really don't get it.

thaumasiotes

a month ago

> I rarely need to use a scale for postage. If I have a standard envelope (~5g) and 3 sheets of paper (15g), I know I'm at 20g total. It turns physical shipping logistics into simple integer arithmetic.

...was using a scale for postage a concern? If you're shipping things on the order of three sheets of paper, you're way below any conceivable threshold. USPS charges a flat rate on letters under 370 grams!

If you're sending 1,700 pieces of looseleaf paper in a box... just weigh the box.

FinnKuhn

a month ago

German postage for letters is under 20g, under 50g and under 500g so I had this issue a few times so far when sending a few letters a day over a few weeks. You can see it here for international letters for example: https://www.deutschepost.de/en/b/briefe-ins-ausland.html

Thankfully I just had a scale, but I can see this being helpful when you don't.

tibordp

a month ago

Given that we are talking about A4 papers and grams, I'd bet this wasn't in the US.

In Europe, the typical flat rate is up to 100g for standard letters. And that's 20 sheets, which is not a particularly unusual letter to send.

pif

a month ago

French "La Poste" sets the first threashold at 20 g.

unwind

a month ago

In Sweden, the lowest postage (one stamp, 22 SEK or around $2) is for max 50 grams.

ericpauley

a month ago

A first class forever stamp only covers 1oz (28g).

jihadjihad

a month ago

CGP Grey has a video [0] that goes into some, let's just say deeper, detail into metric paper that is well worth a watch if you haven't seen it.

0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUF5esTscZI

edit: fat-fingered CPG, thanks @ProllyInfamous

ProllyInfamous

a month ago

You beat me in posting this (I searched for "CGP," first — you mispelled so I didn't see your comment).

----

My favorite CGP Grey video is Metric Paper..., which explores the vast (but limited) world we live in, from plancs to observable universe.

[•] <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUF5esTscZI>

Before generative AI videos, this had been what I considered "the most psychedelic experience one can have without doing drugs." It's still a trip...

abraxas

a month ago

As a European living in North America I developed a weird cognitive dissonance. When I'm in North America the regular printer page (US Letter) seems too squat. When I'm in Europe the A4 page looks too svelte. I now need an in-between format for it to look "right".

johanyc

a month ago

> When I'm in Europe the A4 page looks too svelte.

Off-topic but as a non-native English speaker, TIL what svelte means lol. I often get exposure of new words first from a product name. Same happened with Chrome.

trueismywork

a month ago

B5

dghf

a month ago

Assuming "squat" and "svelte" refer to the aspect ratio, isn't B5 going to look just as "svelte" as A4?

_carbyau_

a month ago

B series paper sizes is a thing I knew but wish I didn't.

See also C series. Thankfully largely a moot point now.

dominicrose

a month ago

Also sqrt(2) isn't the golden number. Not far from it but still...

wyan

a month ago

The golden ratio makes for even less balanced paper than sqrt(2)

n4r9

a month ago

Fun article. I liked the bit about how the size of A0 can be uniquely determined from abstract constraints. But I'm not convinced that the "Measuring Stuff" section involves anything more than memorising the exact dimensions of A4. I don't see how it applies the stuff about preserved ratios.

Nitpick: typo in the dimensions for A3.

pvillano

a month ago

On one hand, you could do the measuring section with any standardized rectangle. On the other hand, any excuse to talk about metric paper

Letter paper, credit card, banknote, business card, etc.

MrSkelter

a month ago

The article declines to mention how precise paper is. The corners are very, very square and the lengths are very, very precise.

Better than an average square, better than an average ruler.

niemandhier

a month ago

25. Of October 1786: Lichtenberg suggested his friend Beckmann a paper format in the aspect ration 1/√2.

»einen Bogen Papier zu finden, bey dem alle Formate … einander ähnlich wären. … Die kleine Seite des Rechtecks muß sich nämlich zu der großen verhalten wie 1:√2 oder wie die Seite des Quadrats zu seiner Diagonale. Die Form hat etwas angenehmes und vorzügliches vor der gewöhnlichen.«

DeRock

a month ago

Here’s a better tip to measure things without a proper measuring device: spread out your hand on a table and measure the distance between your pinky and thumb. Remember that. Now when you need to measure something just measure it in number of pinky-thumb-stretches. I can quickly get the dimensions to +/- an inch by doing a few quick walks with my hand.

qznc

a month ago

It is hand to remember a few finger/knuckles/elbow/shoulder combinations for common measures. One of your phalanges should be ~1 inch, for example, and one of your finger nails is probably ~1 cm wide.

bombcar

a month ago

There's a reason that the English system of measurement had things like "hand" and "foot" - because when you're not measuring things exactly, close enough and commonly available is fine.

adzm

a month ago

Or be like the mythbusters guy and get a ruler tattooed on your arm!

Lio

a month ago

Metric is beautiful.

I remember when I first got into metal work and wanted to get some tapping drills.

There are a plethora of standards when you start looking into it. For what I make though if I use metric I really only need one, ISO Coarse.

Metric is just well thought out and easier.

Animats

a month ago

For small screws, in the millimeter range, the jump between metric sizes is too big. So, in addition to M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, etc. standard metric screws include M1.4, M1.6. M1.8, M2.5, and M3.5 (rare) to fill in the gaps.

Screw sizes and drill sizes should have been sized by a ratio, like resistor values. But that would have been a pain for manual machining.

Lio

a month ago

Yep, as it is some sizes are easier to work with.

Domestic drill sets don't seem to be designed for tapping holes but if you stick to M3, M6 and M10 the tapping sizes do correspond with the 2.5, 5 and 8.5mm drills[1].

I guess if it was based on a ratio system you would need special tapping drills for all of them.

e.g. M4 needs a special 3.3mm tapping drill already.

1. According to my trusty Zeus tables.

tasuki

a month ago

I use my fingers:

When I spread my index finger and middle finger, not entirely as far as they can go, but rather far, that's 10 centimetres.

Thumb to pinky is 22 centimetres. These two are often precise enough for me.

lproven

a month ago

I am glad I came back and reread this -- I misunderstood it as thumb to middle finger at first, and thought it incredibly tiny.

Index to middle finger is 15cm for me, without stretching uncomfortably, and thumb to little finger ("pinky") is 26cm. Outside to outside of the fingers.

(For comparison I am a 1.88m -- 6'2" -- male.)

This is why I like large smartphones. The original tiny ones felt like using cocktail sticks as chopsticks to me: they were tiny and toylike and required superhuman precision.

6.5" phones are just about usable, especially with swipe-typing. Almost all Blackberry models were unusably small and cramped for me, but the Passport was OK.

PlunderBunny

a month ago

My partner (an architect) does something similar, plus - when she holds her arm out straight - the distance from the tips of her fingers to the opposite shoulder blade is almost exactly a meter.

madcaptenor

a month ago

As an American I have done this with 8.5 x 11 "letter" paper. I wonder if there's some way one can take advantage of the special properties of A[n] paper.

ramses0

a month ago

1000% yes! An 8.5x11" paper is effectively a 12" ruler accurate to 2 decimal places.

Fold an 8.5" into a square (right triangle) and the long edge is exactly 12.02"

Fold that in half and you can measure 6.01", and 3.005" (exactly). You get 1.5" for free, and can fairly accurately get exactly 1" by rolling the other 3" side into thirds.

If you want to get an exact 1", you can technically get there via 11"-8.5"-1.5", and that gives you the full imperial (fractional) measurement basis, all from folding a (presumably accurate) 8.5x11" piece of paper.

clickety_clack

a month ago

As a long time European I never thought I’d come to see the sense of American ways, but having lived here now for a couple of years, it actually is easier for it to just be straight up 8.5 x 11 rather that a ratio that includes a square root.

saalweachter

a month ago

It's an interesting tiny trade-off.

Everyone makes paper the same hypothetical way, by producing large sheets and cutting them in half, and ANSI E (34"x44" or 864mm x 1118mm) isn't that different than A0 (841mm x 1189mm), but the slight starting difference means that there are two aspect ratios for ANSI (17/22 and 11/17). On the one hand, they're simple fractions and not irrational numbers; on the other, they're different, so you can't just double the size of something printed on ANSI A/letter sized to fill ANSI B/tabloid size, the way you can go from A4 to A3.

Only a small subset of users will ever want to do that (since if you're printing text you probably need to re-typeset it to keep the type a good size for reading), but only a small subset of users actually care about the aspect ratio or exact dimensions of their paper at all, so whether it is 8.5 or 8.11 or 8.314159... inches doesn't really matter.

dsign

a month ago

I've been working with paper sizes a lot for the last year, and I've rarely thought about the square root of two ratio and when I've, it has been just to amuse myself. However, knowing that to get an A5 piece of paper I just need to cut/fold in half an A4, and that I can get to A3 and A2 by adding A4s, has been really useful. If I were in USA, didn't have that, and instead would have to install yet another new size system in my head[^1], I would despair.

[^1]: This is fun! https://papersizes.io/us/

runarberg

a month ago

What bothers me mostly about American papersizes (I’m also a European immigrant) is that the ratio is not consistent between sizes. So if I design a poster, but want a couple of letter sized printouts for some reason, I have to create a whole new design, rather then just shrink everything down. Otherwise the margins get all wonky.

tonyedgecombe

a month ago

One nice thing with Letter size is you can fit 80 columns of 10 dpi text with standard LaserJet margins. With A4 you have to squeeze the characters together slightly to make that fit.

roelschroeven

a month ago

A[n] sizes are useful when enlarging or shrinking documents. Enlarge or shrink by muliples of sqrt(2) and there's always a fitting paper size available. Or you can put two A5s together on an A4, or two A4s on an A3.

thaumasiotes

a month ago

> I wonder if there's some way one can take advantage of the special properties of A[n] paper.

Not as a consumer. As a paper producer, you take advantage of it by cutting large sheets of paper in half to produce smaller sheets. Since you never sell any sizes that aren't clean multiples of each other like this, you've minimized the amount of paper you waste. That's the "advantage".

This was once the standard way of making paper; I don't know if it still is.

sitharus

a month ago

As a consumer I used to use it all the time, though it matters a lot less these days. Two A4 pages at 50% zoom (A5) fit on one A4. You could cut your printing cost for drafts in half by doing that, back when we had to actually print to check the layout. Same went for posters etc, and since the aspect ratio was preserved it was really handy to preview at home on A4 sheet before taking it to the print shop.

I’m sure you can do that on other size systems, but ISO paper sizing gives you accurate scaling.

Same goes for photocopies, photocopiers can scale copies so two A4 sheets copy to one, if you don’t need the same size.

tolerance

a month ago

Paper Towel stories:

I’ve started to determine the right package of paper towels to purchase according to the cents per square meter value. You can discern the quality of a deal at the grocery by referring to the ‘cents per X’ market located on price tag next to the marked price.

I’m beginning to turn sour on the ‘2 Jumbo-Mega-Rolls are the equivalent of 8 Super rolls’ scheme that’s en vogue. Are there retractable roll holders to accommodate for all of this?

It doesn’t help that many of these packages are priced and then marked down in ways to entice the buyer toward purchasing them instead of more reasonably priced and proportioned ones.

Ekaros

a month ago

With paper towel I have been thinking that the area might not be important, but the number of sheets would be. As long as they do not get too small. And then there is also the quality and if they are half or full. For some uses you just want the full.

It is complicated area. Not to even get to loo roll. Where I noticed that the ecological one I bought feels quality wise inferior to normal one. And this is premium type of stuff. So it sits between the premium and cheap, but more on premium end.

necovek

a month ago

As mentioned in a sibling comment, weight might need to be accounted for too: thicker paper is more absorbant, but not linearly so.

So really, how absorbant the paper is should be the gold standard, so let's ask manufacturers to put that on the packaging?

tolerance

a month ago

Manufacturers already indicate to the thickness of their paper with ply count: <https://blog.whogivesacrap.org/home/difference-ply-toilet-pa...>.

Although that doesn’t speak to the actual quality of the individual layers of paper. I’m not sure if weight is useful especially when manufacturers are already putting their thumb on the scale in other ways with the ‘2 Jumbo-Mega-Rolls are the equivalent of 8 Super rolls’ scheme that I initially referred to.

If all weight can tell me is that 2-Jumbo-Mega Rolls weigh the same as 8 Super rolls am I any better informed?

This is why I’m pretty content with using the price in cents per square foot as a baseline. In general it’s a useful metric when shopping elsewhere at the grocery store too.

fragmede

a month ago

The worst is that the assumption that the greater quantity is cheaper per unit, but for some reason that's not always true so you have to sit there and do the math in order to get the best deal.

fainpul

a month ago

Since not all paper is of the same thickness, shouldn't you compare "weight per price"?

Aryezz

a month ago

Maths Youtuber Noel Friedrich recently made a video about A4 paper[0]. It turns out that since the ISO specification rounds the side lengths down to whole millimeters, with compounding errors, more than 2^10 A10s (smallest paper size in the standard) fit into one A0 (largest size in the standard).

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDKBCIMkDbw

tveyben

a month ago

Ha - I have made so many measurements using an A4 with great accuracy that this monitor-story might as well have been me :-)

I never understood the US paper size system while living there (or since...!), don't get me started with feet and inches and 16'ths etc - ISO, metric and base10 is just so much more logical and easy to use...

lewisjoe

a month ago

I use my phone when I want to measure stuff. Not an app, just the physical phone as a ruler. Almost always the dimensions of whatever phone I've got is published on the internet. It's a quick hack and better than carrying around A4 papers ;)

felurx

a month ago

I've participated in (and now have been a ref for) a robotics competition, First Lego League, a couple of times. The robots can have a height of up to 30.5cm (12"), and that's usually quickly checked before each round.

Since there's pretty much always some A4 paper lying around near you, probably a copy of the rules, in most situations we just hold up a sheet (rolled up if you're feeling fancy) next to the robot. Much quicker than finding the ruler that's probably in use (or misplaced) somewhere else :D

xp84

a month ago

Pythagoras would appreciate her usage of his theorem, but I'd have just laid my papers diagonally across the screen to measure it directly without computing any square roots. Since I'm a yank, 11 + 11 + 5.5 would do quite nicely.

zabzonk

a month ago

At one point on an international project I had to fly a box of UK A4 to the USA in my luggage so the Americans could check their software could cope with the different size. It did, but lugging it around was a pain - paper is heavy!

mitthrowaway2

a month ago

I wish we could buy A4 paper in North America! I find it surprising it's not available even in specialty stores. The rest of the world uses it!

tanjtanjtanj

a month ago

I don’t know what specialty stores you’re talking about but A4 is readily available at most stationary stores, or anything related to letter writing, pens, or paper. I got the A5 notebook I’m currently using at Barnes and Noble, they also have A4.

Heck, I’m pretty sure you could get a sheaf of it at any number of office supply stores right now if you wanted.

slowmovintarget

a month ago

For printers?

I buy A4 notebooks all the time. I use fountain pens, so many of the notebooks and even loose paper with the proper sizing (coating, that is) usually come in EU sizes. Tomoe River... Clairfontaine... etc.

kevin_thibedeau

a month ago

Kodak used to have an industrial printer partnership with Heidelberg. They would test their printers with pallet loads of A4. Most I've ever seen in the US.

ExoticPearTree

a month ago

Yo do know all the jokes about how the US would anything as a measuring system except the metric system? Same with paper.

sitharus

a month ago

I had the reverse, we had to get a ream of US Letter and corresponding envelopes sent over so we could ensure the layouts printed properly. Also some chequ… “checks” which were fascinating.

mystifyingpoi

a month ago

Couldn't they... just cut it according to A4 dimensions?

zabzonk

a month ago

An interesting question, but I think it would be very hard to do it accurately. Also, some of the reports the needed to print during testing were looong.

sam_goody

a month ago

While this is nice, it is not inherently related to an A4 paper.

You could have memorized the length of a cheapo Bic pen if that is common in your area; Or a Parker or a Monte-Blanc if you carry one of those.

All recent iPhones (regular models since `03) have a width of 71.5mm. Remember that, and as long as someone near you has an iPhone, you are good to go using it as a ruler. (And people will definitely be, um, impressed).

We have in my kitchen several brands of small forks, all are 19.2mm (just checked. The large forks have a range of sizes). Next time I need to measure something I could just request a fork...

avalys

a month ago

Yeah, I’ve used a sheet of paper as a ruler too...

As regards metric/A* paper sizes, it seems like just a coincidence that this scheme resulted in a standard size that is useful for everyday documents, since it only works for powers of 2 and starts with the definition of 1 square meter. If a meter were 1.5x smaller or larger, then I don’t think there would be a standard size that works so well.

EDIT: Being curious about this, I did some more reading, and discovered there is a “B” series of paper sizes that maintain the same ratio relationship, but are exactly in between all the A sizes! That’s useful.

saalweachter

a month ago

The creators of metric weren't above buggering it to fit human scale needs.

Take the length/weight relationship.

Definitionally, it'd be way more elegant for the unit of mass to be based on the unit of length directly, a cubic meter of something, but having your base unit of mass be a ton wasn't going to fly.

So they instead tried for 1/100th of the meter and landed on the gram, but it turns out they misjudged and now your standard unit of weight is the prefixed kilogram instead, because everyone used kilograms instead.

Which is to say, if you didn't get a pretty good paper size out of the definition used for A0, someone would have found a different definition which did produce a pretty good paper size, and then declare it was the only natural one.

kijin

a month ago

I don't think anybody loses sleep over the kilogram issue because, well, it's metric after all. A kilogram is exactly 1000 grams, so the gram is just as perfectly well defined. Nothing would really change if they were to promote the gram to be the standard unit of mass (not weight!) someday.

silvestrov

a month ago

There is also a C series of sizes which are slightly larger than the A sizes and therefore useful as envelope sizes.

neilv

a month ago

Elegant, sure, but... fold a sheet of US Letter (8.5 x 11.0 inches) in half, and you're on your way to a pirate hat. Fold and pull it several more times, and you have a boat.

shmeeed

a month ago

You can do the same with A4, of course. Metric and imperial pirates will have to battle it out.

user

a month ago

[deleted]

thunderbong

a month ago

I recently went down the A4 paper sizes rabbit hole and found out that there is an ISO standard for this 'ISO 216'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_standard_paper_s...

Edit: while going through the article again, I noticed that's a brief mention of the ISO standard, which I missed in the first round.

unethical_ban

a month ago

Same, last year. I like A4 for large notebooks, and B7nos the perfect size for a pocket journal but it is hard to find.

wt__

a month ago

Some Moleskine cahier notebooks are wrapped in a paper sleeve that has a ruler printed on the back. Inches on one edge; centimetres on the other (a slight improvement for non-American users over Field Notes notebooks, with a ruler on the inside back cover that’s inches only - also the sleeve is rather longer, 28cm in fact).

dominicrose

a month ago

21cm is close to 20 which means A5 has a side close to 10.

29.7 is close to 30. So why not use A4 sheets to install kitchen cabinets? A friend of mine advised me to buy a laser level. A tiny level was quite enough. A laser meter is nice though although I don't understand why it's inaccurate sometimes. Maybe it depends on the surface matter/paint.

tonyedgecombe

a month ago

I always liked the Japanese idea of measuring room size by the number of tatami mats.

kijin

a month ago

Fun fact: tatami mats are slightly smaller in Tokyo than in other parts of Japan.

badc0ffee

a month ago

I have heard German toilet paper is A6, but I never got to verify that. If true, it's one of the more German things ever.

ahazred8ta

a month ago

Almost. In Germany, standard tp is 100 × 140 mm, a bit smaller than DIN A6 (105 × 148).

cycomanic

a month ago

I don't think it is, the aspect ratio seems off, but maybe I'm misremembering (not in Germany right now)

Animats

a month ago

A0 paper is for drafting. That's what people used for engineering drawings before we had AutoCAD with zoom.

zkmon

a month ago

Sqrt(2) being halfway between 1 and 2 multiplicatively, leads to interesting stuff. For example consider two integers A and B. They have a dual in the pair A+B and A-B. Well, not quite. You need to scale them down by 1/sqrt(2). If you do that to the duals, you get the originals again.

mannykannot

a month ago

As the ratio used is a rational approximation of an irrational, I would guess that the ratio-preserving feature breaks down well before you get to atomic sizes, though I have neither proved that to be so nor figured out how to calculate the divergence.

newscracker

a month ago

If you have a Pro or Pro Max model of iPhone from the last several years, it has a LiDAR that allows the pre-installed Measure app to measure lengths/heights, etc., using the camera. Several higher end Android phones may also have the same.

MinimalAction

a month ago

> "Hold on. I think I hear another heckle. What is that? There are mobile phone apps that can measure things now? Really? Right. Security. Where's security?"

Just quoting the author here, haha.

f_allwein

a month ago

Hint: The aspect ratio sqrt(2) should be quite convenient for foldable phones. Current ones seem to be more or less square if unfolded - what use case is that good for?

johanyc

a month ago

That would make the folded phone too wide though. More like a mini tablet.

Mike-14

a month ago

ref: Huawei Pura x

TheFragenTaken

a month ago

>Like most sensible people with a reasonable sense of priorities, I do not carry a ruler with me wherever I go.

Let me introduce to you: the IKEA paper tape measure, folded neatly in your wallet.

FinnKuhn

a month ago

Or just use your phones measuring App. So far the iPhone one has been precise enough for me when on the go.

gschizas

a month ago

Security!

(read the article)

srean

a month ago

There's also the fact that if you don't have a convenient straight-edge around -- fold a sheet of paper, not too rough.

It's a good exercise in thinking, dhy that is so.