civeng
10 hours ago
The battle between the modern 'Left' and 'Right' is pure theater. It’s a false choice designed to keep us arguing over who holds the leash while we remain wage slaves. It would be interesting if some of those individuals could have been more convincing 150 years ago
poly2it
10 hours ago
Yes, it is a false dichotomy, and politics are in fact much more complicated than that.
rc_kas
9 hours ago
Yep. The real battle is wealthies vs poors.
Everything else is just propaganda.
nyc_data_geek1
9 hours ago
No war but class war
WalterBright
8 hours ago
Can you show us how the wealthy are battling the poor?
vlovich123
7 hours ago
Depends how you define it and wether you’re defining it as intentionally en masse or as a byproduct of pure self interest regardless of anything else.
There’s plenty of examples, the most famous one in my opinion is that the popularity of legislation is irrelevant for passage, support by wealthy is. Similarly how the vast majority of people obtain political office is by and large courting the influence of wealthy donors (source - the amount of money being spent in politics and particularly dark money). Also how “lobbying” works even in the Supreme Court and pay to play by definition is politically battling the poor.
WalterBright
6 hours ago
Obamacare is of no use at all for the wealthy. So why do those in power support it?
Everybody says that money buys elections. But consider that Hillary outspent Trump 2:1 and lost, Harris outspent Trump 3:1 and still lost. Bloomberg poured money into his presidential bid, and he didn't garner enough votes to be a blip on the radar.
Campaign money does buy you a stage, but it doesn't buy the votes.
Nobody has ever bought my vote. How about you?
piva00
5 hours ago
> Obamacare is of no use at all for the wealthy. So why do those in power support it?
They... Didn't? It's been defanged and reduced to the aberration it is right now, instead of being single payer, universal healthcare.
> Everybody says that money buys elections. But consider that Hillary outspent Trump 2:1 and lost, Harris outspent Trump 3:1 and still lost. Bloomberg poured money into his presidential bid, and he didn't garner enough votes to be a blip on the radar.
> Campaign money does buy you a stage, but it doesn't buy the votes.
Without campaign money you have no chance at all, could you run a successful presidential campaign on 1/10th or 1/100th of the budget given you had a hypothetical bright candidate, someone that could objectively be a much better president than any of the moneyed ones? No, hence campaign money does buy votes, it just doesn't buy them completely but without campaign money you have absolutely no chance.
vlovich123
5 hours ago
> Obamacare is of no use at all for the wealthy. So why do those in power support it?
Health insurance companies love it.
> Campaign money does buy you a stage, but it doesn't buy the votes.
You literally just talked about how the people everyone got to select from are those that could raise billions for a campaign. Hell the current president is a billionaire - literally the wealthy - and staffed important posts by other wealthy people. Congress is stacked by wealthy people, in no small part because the salary for congress is not commensurate with the responsibility it has.
Also, your numbers seem off for the Harris v Trump campaign (not what I’m seeing looking online) but it doesn’t matter (I highlight where you may have made the error below).
> Nobody has ever bought my vote. How about you?
No one serious about this issue suggests that they hand out money for votes. Well Elon actually did engage in that in this prior election cycle in swing states so there is that undermining your rhetorical comment.
But it’s also the height of naïveté to either not believe advertising/marketing (aka propaganda) works (you know, the trillion billion dollar companies of Google and Facebook) or to believe that politics is somehow immune from its effects as well (which requires ignoring how political movements work or what we learned about propaganda and its efficacy in WWII). And all of that takes big $. Of the 1.2B Kamala raised, 40% was small dollar donations. Of the 400M Trump raised, only 133M was small dollar donations (28.8%). Note: if this is where you’re getting the 3:1 number you’re not reading the data correctly - democrats spent ~1.9B total vs Republicans 1.6B and Trump directly spent >900M (presumably carrying over the donations from the previous campaign? Not sure).
And again - I’ll refer you to the research showing the general popularity of a proposal is irrelevant to it getting passed. How popular it is among wealthy does have that effect. And it again, you seem to struggle when I say this and try to point out some particular piece of legislation - it’s percentages. It doesn’t matter if it’s not an absolute. You don’t need to win every battle to win the war.
Anyway, Walter you’re a smart guy. I expect more from you than rudely dismissive comments that insinuate committing a crime is the only way money and wealth can influence and “buy” politics (and ignoring that Republicans did attempt to do so this past cycle)
vlovich123
5 hours ago
Oh and I suggest you look at how advertising works. It’s classic 0 sum game. If you and I spend 0 on advertising, the outcome is the same as if we both spent $100 on advertising (assuming equivalent efficiency of conversion). However if you spend $100 and I spend 0 you capture the market. If you outspend 2:1 you’ll get 2/3 of the market (roughly). Obviously efficiency of the spend is also important, but it’s literally a 0 sum information war between competitors. If you didn’t think it mattered, you’d have to explain why companies spend hundreds of millions on advertising - that would be money more efficiently invested somewhere else.
nickpp
4 hours ago
> assuming equivalent efficiency of conversion
Is there any case where this is remotely even true?! The way advertising budget is spent always has an enormous impact on the outcome.
One competitor spends in print, another on TV. One competitor targets young professionals, another families with kids. One competitor goes to best and most famous agency but buys the cheapest package and fights any decision, another gets a genius kid at the beginning of his career to create a most brilliant TikTok ad. Etc...
> I suggest you look at how advertising works
A valuable advice, try following it sometimes.
mperham
8 hours ago
99% of zoning is just class-based segregation.
saubeidl
8 hours ago
Here's a recent American example: https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/by-the-numbers-har...
tehjoker
8 hours ago
where does profit come from? Simply trading items in a competitive market will not turn profits.
freefaler
4 hours ago
No profits == no business. Profits in very competitive markets might be low, but you still need them to survive. Walmart is under 6% of profit, but due to the enormous revenue it is still a lot.
vkou
8 hours ago
You could do some basic research on this topic, it's been exhaustively covered over the past few centuries, but I'll drop you three starting points.
Pushing the tax burden for upkeeping society off people who own more shit than any of us ever will onto people who have to work for a living.
Legal protection and structural advantages for landlord interests over tenant interests.
Legal protection and structural advantages for employer interests over employee interests vis a vis wage theft, worker safety, worker injuries, etc.
There are many others, but even a brief summary of injustice in any one of these topics is big enough for ~a few hundred books, and alas, the margins of this website are too small to contain them.
WalterBright
6 hours ago
> Legal protection and structural advantages for landlord interests over tenant interests.
Rent control is not in the landlord's business. In Seattle, the other legislation against landlords is pushing them out of business.
> Pushing the tax burden for upkeeping society off people who own more shit than any of us ever will onto people who have to work for a living.
1% pay 40% of the federal income tax.
Google [percent of federal government spending spent on wealth redistribution] says: "A significant portion of U.S. federal spending, around 60-70%, goes to social insurance and safety net programs like Social Security, Medicare, and Income Security, which function as wealth redistribution by supporting retirees, the needy, and vulnerable populations, though the exact "wealth redistribution" percentage varies by definition but centers on these large mandatory spending categories. In FY 2024, Social Security and Medicare alone were 36% of the budget, with Income Security adding another ~9-10%."
> Legal protection and structural advantages for employer interests over employee interests vis a vis wage theft, worker safety, worker injuries, etc.
The legal advantage again is for the employee. For example, wage theft is illegal and is aggressively prosecuted.
vkou
5 hours ago
> Rent control is not in the landlord's business... Seattle... Landlords going out of business...
And you immediately demonstrate why having a conversation with you on this subject is pointless.
There's a million different dimensions in which the problem that I've pointed at manifests. But what you do is you cherry-pick one particular dimension of it in one particular municipality in one particular time period[1], claim that that dimension is (allegedly) biased in the other direction, and thus you reach the universal conclusion that clearly landlords are the real victims[2], and you can just sweep the entire issue off the table.
I don't have enough words to describe how incurious and chock-full-of-fallacies this kind of thinking is.
You already know everything that you feel you need to, and there's nothing more that needs to be said. It's like you have found the number 2, and conclude that therefore, most numbers are even primes.
---
[1] Actually, you don't do even that. You just vaguely wave your hands in its direction.
[2] Kind of weird that the market values their real estate to be worth twice what it was a decade ago if they are getting such a raw deal. I'm sure PE is snapping up rental properties because they are money-losing investments, too. After all, serious people who have done the math and are putting billions of dollars into this (and are reaping profits on their investments hand-over-fist) must all be too stupid to understand just how awful renting out property is.
slibhb
10 hours ago
The term "wage slave" is a cop-out. People -- all of us -- are stomach-slaves, not wage-slaves.
solatic
8 hours ago
Having needs is not the same as slavery. Wage slavery is described as such because of the power imbalance between employer and worker, who has limited agency to find another employer, with whom he would also have a relationship with a power imbalance.
A wealthy man who receives a check for dividends and interest most months is not subject to such power imbalances. Wealth makes him free.
It's not an argument that socialism would enable people to just live off a public dividend, so to speak. Somebody has to work, and workplaces require discipline. Rather it's an argument for better labor safety controls, and a personal appeal to people to save as much money as they can.
WalterBright
6 hours ago
I've been an employer. I didn't have any power over my employees. If there was anything they didn't like, they simply stopped coming to work. How was I supposed to make them show up?
One embezzled a large amount of money and spent it on drugs. What was I supposed to do about that? He was broke, he couldn't pay the money back. All I could do was tell him to not come back.
I've also been employed at minimum wage jobs, and salaried jobs. I never felt the employer had power over me. At my salaried jobs, my coworkers complained about all the power the company had over them. The company had no power over me, so I would ask them what the power was. After some long conversations, the problem was the coworkers spent every dime of their income. So not having a paycheck for a week was a catastrophe. The company, however, was unaware of these issues.
I recommend saving up to 6 months of living expenses, and then the employer will have no leverage over you.
freefaler
4 hours ago
A lot of people forget that going hungry is the default state of not doing a thing. The super rich and socially progressive societies redistribute the taxes they levy on the productive people to help the people who can not (elderly, ill) or won't (lazy bastards) work. It might be a better deal for the society as a whole, to offset the cirme that would ensue if there isn't any social net.
A lion in the plains of Africa is not entitled to a dinner, the farmer in not entitled to a crop yield. It is super rare that people can't do anything to better themselves and get more for their own skills or execution. Any buisness owner will gladly share a percentage of profit you generate for them if you can show them you're indeed generating such profit.
If you're in DPRK or Cuba then you'd need to check your free-market priviledge of having a market for your skills.
Aloha
9 hours ago
that may be so, but a stack of bills or small bag of coins is sure easier to cart around than things I can eat are.