KDE going all-in on a Wayland future

43 pointsposted 11 hours ago
by dualogy

30 Comments

hxorr

8 hours ago

What I am uncomfortable with is the inability to run Wayland on older video hardware. X11 will happily run with Vesa driver on older hardware which no longer has functional 3D accelerated drivers.

What is the way forward for the retro community to run a modern Wayland system on older hardware?

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can chime in or correct me

eddyb

8 hours ago

If your Linux distribution is handling Mesa packages correctly, you will never lack OpenGL/Vulkan drivers.

The reason is that Mesa includes "software rendering" drivers for both OpenGL ("llvmpipe") and Vulkan ("lavapipe"). As the name(s) might suggest, they use LLVM to JIT shaders for your CPU (supporting SIMD up to AVX2, last I checked - although typical compositing shaders tend to get pattern-matched and replaced with plain `memcpy`s etc.).

So you should always be able to run a fully-featured Wayland desktop (albeit limited in performance by your CPU), on any unaccelerated framebuffer, nowadays (and I remember doing this even before Plasma 6 launched, it may be older than usable Wayland desktops tbh - the Mesa code sure is, but maybe distros hadn't always built those drivers?).

ahartmetz

4 hours ago

Software OpenGL rendering technically works, but is IME unusably slow for compositing. What does work okay is direct software rendering. It might work to configure OpenGL to hit all the fast paths in the software backend (which you might need to add first), but I'm really not sure if you can do it without at least some unnecessary data copying.

ahartmetz

8 hours ago

Software compositing is possible. Wayland doesn't strictly require hardware acceleration or operations that are hopelessly slow without hardware acceleration.

trueismywork

8 hours ago

How old? Im running KDE on 6700k and gtx 960. (I can run on without 960 too). Thats 10 year old at this point

eviks

8 hours ago

Oh the downplaying

> In certain cases, 3rd-party applications doing specialized tasks like taking screenshots

In what way is this copy&paste-like staple of general computing some "specialized" task?

Will the new opportunities include reaching "specialized" feature parity?

> In the longer term, this change opens up new opportunities for features, optimizations, and speed of development.

kokada

5 hours ago

I don't think they're downplaying. Most users will be perfectly happy with the included KDE application for screenshots/screen capture (it is really fully featured, much better than the default options for Windows or macOS).

And they're not saying that no third party applications will work either, it is just that old screenshot applications that were created for X11 will need to be ported.

In the end that is not really much different from macOS dropping Rosetta in the next release of macOS (yes, I know there is a difference of effort). Old applications will stop working, applications that still get support will eventually support it (if they don't support Wayland already).

eddyb

8 hours ago

If you're not familiar, the way X11 works is comparable to "multiplayer notepad" for your pixels ("multiplayer MSPaint"?).

All your monitors are combined into a large canvas where every pixel can be written and read by any X11 client.

Screenshots (and screen sharing) could be silently performed with zero user feedback (or any good way to even detect when apps might be doing this maliciously, AFAIK).

This is one of the big "security implications" that motivated Wayland (and somewhat similarly, the Flatpak sandbox and the XDG Portal infrastructure that has by now outgrown it).

The infrastructure is already there, for 3rd party apps to request these abilities (with the user getting the choice of following through, or denying the request), e.g.:

- https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/docs/doc-org.fr...

- https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/docs/doc-org.fr...

Keep in mind that any action which doesn't require interactivity every time (e.g. restarting the screensharing of a previously-chosen window/display) could have "user gave permission" be remembered, but that seamless case still only applies to that combination (so that client can't peek at anything else than what it was offered).

Anyway, what the blog post is talking about is really just 3rd party apps that haven't been updated (and e.g. might already not function properly inside Flatpak).

> feature parity

If we are being honest, screenshots/screensharing was never a "feature" of X11, it was a big security hole abused as a feature.

eviks

7 hours ago

> The infrastructure is already there, for 3rd party apps to request these abilities (with the user getting the choice of following through, or denying the request), e.g.:

Why can't the infrastructure include the user simply allowing the app to continue to have access without a specialized infrastructure of app request (that requires updating the app)?

> really just 3rd party apps that haven't been updated

What's with the downplaying "just" again? Have all the best or most popular apps been updated to ensure no disruption?

> screenshots/screensharing was never a "feature" of X11, it was a big security hole abused as a feature.

So what was the screenshot feature of X11? Also classifying use as abuse isn't that honest, only the lack of security is

eddyb

7 hours ago

> So what was the screenshot feature of X11?

In case I wasn't clear enough, there was never a screenshot feature. Any X11 client could read any pixel written by any other X11 client.

> Have all the best or most popular apps been updated to ensure no disruption?

I am not familiar with DE-agnostic "screenshot apps" for Linux, they always seemed more common on other OSes, and I've always used the DE-specific apps (which were the first to support such mechanisms, some of them even using more direct DE-specific private protocols instead of XDG Portals).

But I spent a few seconds googling for general screenshot apps, found Flameshot (which makes sense as a cross-platform app), and it turns out that support for the XDG Portal approach was added to it almost 5 years ago:

https://github.com/flameshot-org/flameshot/pull/1272

And if you peek around the diff, you can tell that KDE/GNOME-specific support, on Wayland - using DBus but not the XDG Portals protocol - already existed, in early 2021, in fact...

https://github.com/flameshot-org/flameshot/commit/a5df852268...

That's the commit that added KDE/GNOME-specific Wayland screenshot support.

8 years ago, in a 3rd-party app!

> Why can't the infrastructure include the user simply allowing the app to continue to have access without a specialized infrastructure of app request (that requires updating the app)?

I'd forgotten that this happened, but for screensharing from a X11 client, someone already went through the trouble of emulating it (on top of the XDG Portals + PipeWire infrastructure):

https://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/xwaylandvideobridge/

It's only a temporary hack, and it only matters for X11 clients running under XWayland - if an app can run as a native Wayland client, it should have XDG Portals-based implementations of relevant features.

> What's with the downplaying "just" again? Have all the best or most popular apps been updated to ensure no disruption?

Am I downplaying, or are you describing a vague category of "the best or more popular apps" without giving examples?

I feel like it's too easy for some of this stuff to end up in FUD-like arguments without considering the objective reality (of how far we've come in the past few years etc.).

Anyway, my subjective take is that X11 took a decade or two too long to die, and most (if not all) gripes users might have with Wayland can be traced back to X11 outliving its UNIX Workstation origins and having never been designed as a Personal Computing graphical environment.

StillBored

an hour ago

> In case I wasn't clear enough, there was never a screenshot feature. Any X11 client could read any pixel written by any other X11 client.

Which is a load of FUD, the X11 security extensions from (checks google) 1996, restrict this.

hulitu

16 minutes ago

> Which is a load of FUD, the X11 security extensions from (checks google) 1996, restrict this.

Wait, what ? X11 has extensions ? As in can be "extended" ? And has the same thing since ( for the sake of dialogue) 1996 ? That't why it must die. We need a monolith window system, with clear versions, all incompatible with each other. Only then, real progress can be made. /s

diath

7 hours ago

It's actually wild that they're trying to sell lack of basic desktop features as "security features". Try explaining to an average person that when they are playing a game and want to capture a cool moment to share on Discord with their friends that by design the window server they are using will not let them do that and it's "for their own good". Like God forbid I want my computer to be actually usable. We had the same situation in the past when Wayland lacked a way to lock in the cursor within a window and it took them like 8 years to develop a "protocol" or whatever they call it. Imagine that for each basic desktop usability/UX feature, we will have to wait another decade. At that rate Linux will never have widespread adoption on desktop. Wayland sometimes feels like an active effort to sabotage Linux on desktop.

w4rh4wk5

6 hours ago

I'd say it's completely irresponsible to not have such features, claiming it's about security, rather than implementing it behind a permission system that puts the end-user in charge.

hakfoo

an hour ago

Wayland had the same odor a failed state has.

It's a huge hairball with no easy fixes, but at the same time, that's of significant benefit to some specific players. You can have a very usable X11 desktop with positively pre-Cambrian software. But to keep up with Wayland's ever evolving omnishambles, you basically have to run KDE or GNOME, or maybe Sway.

hulitu

15 minutes ago

> It's actually wild that they're trying to sell lack of basic desktop features as "security features".

They copied from the masters: Google and Microsoft. Gone are the days when KDE was years before Windows.

Jonnax

6 hours ago

I searched online and found articles from December 2024 that Discord supports Wayland screen and audio sharing.

Zardoz84

4 hours ago

I'm using KDE with Wayland and I don't have problems to make screenshots or capture video.

veeti

6 hours ago

[flagged]

mazone

8 hours ago

I love kde and it is what i use but still having the bug from time to time that the panels dissapear and have to relaunch plasmashell, also i wish they merged the virtual desktops and activities into one concept and allowed different wallpapers on each.

The theme settings is also confusing because of gtk apps, global theme etc. Feels everything around theming could be made nicer.

Prob some more nitpicks but overall it is a really great desktop environment.

graemep

7 hours ago

> I love kde and it is what i use but still having the bug from time to time that the panels dissapear and have to relaunch plasmashell

I have that too, on Wayland. I also had a bug I mentioned recently in another comment with transparent terminals flickering, but that seems to depend on what is behind them and I think is a bug specific to Konsole.

Overall, its very close compared to a few years ago when several things were problematic with Wayland, but I do slightly feel its not quite there yet.

> i wish they merged the virtual desktops and activities into one concept and allowed different wallpapers on each.

> Prob some more nitpicks but overall it is a really great desktop environment.

I agree with both those.

moxvallix

9 hours ago

Interesting, I always heard that x11 was not getting dropped until Plasma 7. While I am now fully on wayland myself, still not sure how to feel about this, feels a bit soon.

trueismywork

8 hours ago

The x11 will be supported for 1.5 more years in latest state. And then there will still be support from LTS distribution for bug fixes. Only new features won't be there. It seems very glacial to me still.

> This is a perfect use case for long term support (LTS) distributions shipping older versions of Plasma. For example, AlmaLinux 9 includes the Plasma X11 session and will be supported until sometime in 2032.

The_President

3 hours ago

Bluetooth is still broken beyond belief and here we are with another post from KDE about Wayland. If Wayland will be as buggy as the KDE bluetooth implementation, it’s an easy pass.

mkayokay

6 hours ago

What is the solution regarding the display manager? As SDDMs Wayland support is considered experimental.

What do you guys use/recommend?

tmtvl

4 hours ago

I use lemurs because as far as I can tell there's no good graphical display managers (lightdm may be the closest as SDDM doesn't show battery level and GDM doesn't allow changing the mouse cursor theme).

estimator7292

an hour ago

I love Wayland. I just absolutely love hard-rebooting my computer twice a day. Oh, need to walk away from the desk? Better switch into a TTY before unplugging the dock so I can force restart SDDM when it crashes. Oh no! Walked out of WiFi range? Your DE is hard frozen and the only operable button is the power button.

Wayland truly saves me so much time at work. It's forced me to re-up my ctrl+s reflex. Now I never lose work when it randomly crashes!

We've also been playing a fun new game. Every morning when I walk into the office my giant 5Kx1K monitor might be reset to literally any imaginable resolution and I have to figure out how to navigate to the display configuration menu to manually reset it because of course replugging the screen doesn't work.

I love Wayland. It's so easy to use and reliable. But MOST IMPORTANT it's newer than X11. Thank god I don't have to use gross old software written in uncool languages. God for-fucking-bid we have to run old software that works instead of new software that-- while not as good as the old software-- is still new

What's that? Wayland is almost 20 years old and still not to feature parity with any other OS? Well, it's newer than X11!

ErroneousBosh

3 hours ago

Oh, that's a shame, just when I thought KDE was looking quite good. Back to Xorg and Gnome then, because I need accelerated graphics.

A very basic functional test, with NVidia drivers 580.95:

Gnome and Xorg - Minecraft with a heavyish shader gives 60fps, Kerbal Space Program gives 60fps, DaVinci Resolve works

KDE and Wayland - Minecraft with the same shader gives 4fps, KSP gives 2fps, DaVinci Resolve does not work

Gnome and Wayland: Minecraft gives 3fps, KSP gives 3fps, DaVinci Resolve does not work.

So, acceleration is not supported, it seems. Bummer.

Maybe next year Wayland will be relevant.