rottencupcakes
7 hours ago
It's classic Apple to spend over a decade insisting that that glossy screens were the best option, and then to eventually roll out a matte screen as a "premium" feature with a bunch of marketing around it.
LeoPanthera
7 hours ago
Historically, traditional matte screen finishes exhibited poor optical qualities by scattering ambient light, which tended to wash out colors. This scattering process also affected the light from individual pixels, causing it to refract into neighboring pixels.
This reduced overall image quality and caused pixel-fine details, such as small text, to appear smeary on high-density LCDs. In contrast, well-designed glossy displays provide a superior visual experience by minimizing internal refraction and reflecting ambient light at high angles, which reduces display pollution. Consequently, glossy screens often appear much brighter, blacks appear blacker without being washed out, colors show a higher dynamic range, and small details remain crisper. High-quality glass glossy displays are often easy to use even in full daylight, and reflections are manageable because they are full optical reflections with correct depth, allowing the user to focus on the screen content.
Apple's "nano texture" matte screens were engineered to solve the specific optical problems of traditional matte finishes, the washed-out colors and smeary details. But they cost more to make. The glossy option is still available, and still good.
asdff
6 hours ago
I used to have a 2006 macbook pro with the matte screen. It was glorious. None of these issues were present or really noticeable. Maybe you'd notice it in lab setting but not irl. Kind of like 120hz and 4k; just useless to most peoples eyes at the distances people actually use these devices. I've only owned matte external monitors as well and again, no issues there.
The glossy era macbooks otoh have been a disaster in comparison imo. Unless your room is pitch black it is so easy to get external reflections. Using it outside sucks, you often see yourself more clearly than the actual contents on the screen. Little piece of dust on the screen you flick off becomes a fingerprint smear. The actual opening of the lid on the new thin bezel models means the top edge is never free of fingerprints. I'm inside right now and this M3 pro is on max brightness setting just to make it you know, usable, inside. I'm not sure if my screen is actually defectively dim or this is just how it is. Outside it is just barely bright enough to make out the screen. Really not much better than my old 2012 non retina model in terms of outdoor viewing which is a bit of a disappointment because the marketing material lead me to believe these new macbooks are extremely bright. I guess for HDR content maybe that is true but not for 99% of use cases.
coldtea
5 hours ago
>I used to have a 2006 macbook pro with the matte screen. It was glorious. None of these issues were present or really noticeable.
They were absolutely noticable. Contrast was crap. I immediately went with glossy with my next MBP around that same period.
daymanstep
6 hours ago
120Hz is absolutely a noticeable improvement over 60Hz. I have a 60Hz iPhone and a 120Hz iPhone and the 60Hz one is just annoying to use. Everything feels so choppy.
asdff
4 hours ago
I can't tell at all when my mbp is in 120hz or 60hz. I tried to set up a good test too by scrolling really fast while plugging and unplugging the power adapter (which kicks it into high power 120hz or low power 60hz).
embedding-shape
3 hours ago
One of those things that some people notice, some people don't. I'm definitely in the camp where I feel differences between 120hz and 60hz, but I don't feel 60hz as choppy, and beyond 120hz I can't notice any difference, but others seemingly can. Maybe it's our biology?
acjohnson55
2 hours ago
I would bet most people would fail a blind test.
dgfl
42 minutes ago
Basically everyone who has played videogames on pc will notice the difference. I easily notice a drop from 360Hz to 240Hz.
I also use 60Hz screens just fine, saying that getting used to 120Hz ruins slower displays is being dramatic. You can readjust to 60Hz again within 5 minutes. But I can still instantly tell which is higher refresh rate, at least up to 360Hz.
LtWorf
37 minutes ago
Videogames also do the input every loop so there's a big difference there. It must be evaluated with a video only.
lmz
26 minutes ago
We're talking about monitors here, which usually have a mouse cursor on it for input. Of course it would be hard to tell between 60 vs 120Hz screens if you used both to play a 30FPS video.
dontlaugh
4 hours ago
4K too, at anything over 15” or so.
I’m always baffled people insist otherwise.
arcanemachiner
3 hours ago
I agree with this, but I use a 43" 4K TV as my monitor... which probably isn't what you meant.
dontlaugh
3 hours ago
I notice it on my 27” monitor. I’ve seen 15” 4K displays and that’s about the limit where I can see the difference.
My eyesight isn’t perfect, either.
asdff
4 hours ago
At the distance I look at my TV screen (about 7 feet from the couch) I can't make out the pixels of the 1080p screen. 4k is lost on me. 2020 vision but I guess that is not enough.
Tagbert
2 hours ago
Resolution is much less important for video than it is for text and user interfaces.
heavyset_go
3 hours ago
Unless the screen is right in front of your face, video codecs and their parameters matter more than FHD vs UHD, IMO.
At least to me, with corrected vision, a high quality 1080p video looks better than streaming quality 4k at the same distance.
dalmo3
3 hours ago
Compare apples to apples, e.g. gaming, and the difference is glaring.
dontlaugh
4 hours ago
I’m 3m from my TV and I can absolutely tell 4K from 1080p, but it is indeed subtle.
But a fraction of that distance to my monitor makes even 4K barely good enough. I’d need a much smaller 4K monitor to not notice pixels.
brians
4 hours ago
We have different eyes and different purposes, I think.
acjohnson55
2 hours ago
The 2006 would probably have had 1080ish resolution. I think the GP's point is that at higher resolutions, matte has tended to have the issues they cited.
I am with you in preferring matte. For me, mostly because of reflections on glossy screens.
wtallis
2 hours ago
Even at ~100 dpi, the grainy character of matte coatings from that era was noticeable; my 2006 iMac and a Dell Ultrasharp from a few years later were both unmistakably grainy in a way that glossy displays are not. At the time, the matte coatings were an acceptable tradeoff and the best overall choice for many users and usage scenarios. But I can imagine they would have been quite problematic when we jumped to 200+ dpi.
dylan604
3 hours ago
> Unless your room is pitch black it is so easy to get external reflections
This is nearly my preferred setup, only I have wall lights on the wall behind the monitors so it's not truly a dark room (which is horrible for your eyes). No over head lights allowed on while I'm at the keyboard.
BoorishBears
6 hours ago
To each their own but I have a matte M4 Pro and I don't like it, and the screen is noticeably worse than my glossy M2 Pro.
There's a graininess to the screen that makes it feel a little worse at all times, meanwhile I never had a problem in daylight just cranking brightness into the XDR range using Lunar.
It's especially noticeable on light UIs, where empty space gets an RGB "sparkle" to it. I noticed the same thing when picking out my XDR years ago, so it seems like they never figured out how to solve it.
boredtofears
3 hours ago
Both 4k and 120hz were very noticeable improvements imo.
andrei_says_
4 hours ago
> High-quality glass glossy displays are often easy to use even in full daylight…
Not my experience in lit environments. Looking at a mirror-like surface trying to distinguish content from reflections is exhausting.
Unless I blast my eyes at full brightness which is more exhausting.
christophilus
2 hours ago
To each their own. Matte screens always have a massive smudge in bright light and look terrible and grainy in the dark. I can’t stand them.
amluto
3 hours ago
All of what you say is kind of sort of true in the sense that, if you are in a room with lots of off-axis light hitting your screen and darkness behind you and you yourself are not brightly lit, then the glossy screen is better. And the glossy screen is certainly sharper.
But if there’s a window or something bright behind you, the specular reflection from the glossy and generally not anti reflective coated screen can be so bright and so full of high frequency details that it almost completely obscures the image.
And since I might be trying to work involving text in a cafe as opposed to doing detailed artistic work in a studio, I would much prefer the matte surface.
zdragnar
6 hours ago
> High-quality glass glossy displays are often easy to use even in full daylight,
I guess Apple cheaped out on their glossy displays, because I definitely didn't care for mine in full daylight
BoorishBears
6 hours ago
Glossy vs matte has started to matter less as the peak brightness goes up.
When your screen can do 1,600 nits, daylight isn't as much of a problem
heavyset_go
3 hours ago
I'd rather not blow my battery budget on fighting the sun for visibility.
BoorishBears
27 minutes ago
I tend to do outdoor things outdoors, so occasionally cranking up brightness is not an issue.
I'd much rather do that than to have a granier screen with worse viewing angles all the time I'm not in direct sunlight, so next time around I'll be back on glossy.
asdff
6 hours ago
Yeah this m3 pro isn't really doing 1600 nits. Marginally brighter than my 2012.
To get to actual 1600 nits you need to use scripts.
https://github.com/SerjoschDuering/macbook_1600nits
Not sure the impacts to display health or battery running the screen full bore like this.
BoorishBears
6 hours ago
I use Lunar and have used it on my Pro Display XDR and every MBP with XDR I've owned with 0 issues.
seemaze
7 hours ago
Do you prefer glossy paper work? glossy book pages? glossy construction documents? The preference for a non-reflective surface for the relaying of dense information has been established for decades.
You know what's glossy? Movie posters and postcards.
elliottkember
6 hours ago
Paper, books, and construction documents all use reflected and not refracted light.
seemaze
2 hours ago
ooh, my feathers were a bit ruffled (for reasons unrelated) when I wrote the above.
I still say for comfortable all day viewing and productivity, there is no comparison. Glossy does have more pop on a phone or watching movies in the dark, but I'd go blind doing that all day every day..
dmitrygr
6 hours ago
non-reflective surfaces you cite have pigments on TOP. screens have depth causing parallax and light spreading. Your point would be valid if screens were paper-thin and image pixels came out the very surface
asdff
6 hours ago
You'd need a jewelers loupe to appreciate parallax and spreading. Not a real problem in general use.
dmitrygr
6 hours ago
i use a matte screen protector on my iphone. without it, i can see pixels. with it, i cannot. no loupe, just my nearsighted eyes
asdff
4 hours ago
You can see actual pixels on a retina iphone? That is remarkable eyesight. I could do it on old non retina iphones but not on retina models.
dmitrygr
2 hours ago
Kind of a cool thing about being nearsighted. Without glasses, I can get very close to things and still focus on them, i get to see very small details.
LtWorf
39 minutes ago
I have a feeling that you've never actually seen a matte screen.
Keyframe
5 hours ago
You make it sound like what they, according to you, tried to do was a success. One look at nano texture screen is enough for a resounding no.
kakacik
7 hours ago
Somebody drank its portion of cool aid for sure. There is that little detail that glossy screens needed absolutely perfect conditions in front of them to not reflect literally whole world, making resulting visuals often subpar to matte. I have never, ever been in work conditions in past 20 years that didn't manifest this in annoying and distracting way.
I haven't seen a single display that ever overcame that properly for long term work. Sure, phones use it but they increased luminosity to absurd level to be readable, not a solution I prefer for daily long work.
I admit there are corner cases of pro graphics where it made sense (with corresponding changes to environment) but I am not discussing this here.
lobochrome
2 hours ago
These AI comments suck. I mean sure. It’s probably true. But the pollution of our social interactions with slop is so icky.
I receive these highly polished emails from people and am just annoyed. Do you expect me to answer your robot?!
Maybe there needs to be a bad style minimum for a forum in the future. Only human imperfections allowed.
Ok. Of topic maybe.
I love the Nano texture displays. And the glossy glass ones were also great and the best ones out there.
2OEH8eoCRo0
7 hours ago
Sounds like Apple marketing wankery. I have a matte high density LCD from 2013 (Lenovo) that looks great. Does Apple even make the displays? What exactly are they "engineering" here?
kergonath
7 hours ago
> What exactly are they "engineering" here?
The coatings, which do matter quite a bit when you are optimising for some durability/optical quality tradeoff.
Glass covers make screens more durable, but imply internal and external reflections. Laminated screens on glass panes solves the internal reflections and improve transmission, but do not help with glare and external reflections. Those can be improved by texturing the glass, but at the cost of diffraction and smearing, leading to a decrease in effective resolution. Unless the texture becomes small enough, but then you need it to be durable enough to avoid being wiped or damaged by things that might come into contact with the screen.
It turns out that there is a lot more than the bottom layers that matter in a display. You can see all these problems being solved in succession when looking at the evolution of Apple’s displays over the years (and others’, but it is much easier to find information about the good and bad sides of any Apple product). It’s fascinating, actually.
[edit] add the issue of oils on the human skin and you have do deal with oleophobic coatings for touch screens, which is another very important factor to consider. In addition to how the touch sensors are integrated.
tymscar
28 minutes ago
If anything, Apple was right back then. Glossy has so many benefits for the places where you’d use a computer, it’s not even close. Having the option to pay premium for those few that work in environments where matte helps them makes sense. I’d pay money for my display to not be matte.
mdasen
6 hours ago
Apple was actually late to the glossy display party. HP and Dell moved to them a few years before Apple. I don't think Apple was "insisting" on them, but rather following an industry trend that they were late to.
m463
7 hours ago
I wonder if they will (re)introduce premium keyboards with sculpted keys that self-center your fingers someday. magsafe coming back was nice, maybe more extra ports?
dylan604
3 hours ago
MagSafe + SD card reader + headphone jack + USB-C/TB4 only ports is fine by me. In 2025, I'm well past needing USB-C to USB-A dongles. We've had since what 2015/16 to start the conversion to C only.
bee_rider
7 hours ago
They are really good at selling a small quantitative improvement that causes them to start using something, as a new type of thing going from impossible to possible. As if the tech didn’t just didn’t exist before Apple started using it.
It is probably a pretty good screen, though.
I don’t really like Apple overall. But, to some extent, it’s like… well, maybe that’s a good way of selling incremental engineering improvements.
inference-god
7 hours ago
As someone who buys and likes Apple stuff, I agree, it's a signature move from them.
a-dub
6 hours ago
i recently worked with a macbook pro and it caused uncomfortable feelings of eyestrain. i had some app that was supposed to disable the temporal dithering but i'm not sure if it helped. i'm curious if there's anyone else on here like me who has experienced eyestrain with macbooks where the nano texture display has helped.
lapcat
7 hours ago
> It's classic Apple to spend over a decade insisting that that glossy screens were the best option
I don't recall Apple ever "insisting" anything about glossy vs. matte. They simply eliminated the matte option without comment, and finally brought it back many years later.
If you have a reference to a public statement from Apple defending the elimination of the matte option, I'd like to see it.
To be clear, I've been complaining about glossy Macs ever since matte was eliminated, and I too purchased an M4 MacBook Pro soon after it was available.
dbbk
6 hours ago
The "matte" options also are totally different approaches, different quality levels. They're not the same product.
kergonath
6 hours ago
> They simply eliminated the matte option without comment, and finally brought it back many years later.
Wasn’t the matte option that disappeared just then removing the glass in front of the screen? I seem to remember that (my MBP from that time was glossy).
The nano textured coating they are using now is quite complex and I am not quite sure it was applicable at such scales cheaply enough back in 2015.
lapcat
6 hours ago
The PowerBook and the first MacBook Pro were only matte.
A glossy option was introduced in 2006, but the MacBook Pro was still matte by default.
In 2008, the MacBook Pro case was redesigned, and then the display situation changed significantly.
shuckles
7 hours ago
It’s classic Apple commenter not know about Apple. They offered matte display upgrades to the MacBook Pro almost 20 years ago. The current glossy black display only became a product line wide choice with the retina displays in 2012, likely because they didn’t prioritize getting an appropriate matte glass finish on the retina screens due to low demand.
iAMkenough
7 hours ago
I can make the same argument about you. Matte display was the standard prior to Unibody MacBook Pros in 2008.
Glossy was an available option, but not the product line wide choice.
The top of the line Late 2008 MacBook Pro (not Unibody) included: > An antiglare CCFL-backlit 17" widescreen 1680x1050 active-matrix display (a glossy display was offered via build-to-order at no extra cost, and a higher resolution LED-backlit 1920x1200 display also was offered for an extra US$100).
https://everymac.com/systems/apple/macbook_pro/specs/macbook...
tomcam
4 hours ago
Downvoted for the unhelpful first sentence.
marcosscriven
7 hours ago
Are you an Apple commenter?
GeekyBear
3 hours ago
It's certainly on brand for Apple to face widespread criticism in the past for having matte screens as the default (computer magazines of the day found that matte finishes made screens too dim) only to face renewed criticism for dropping the thing they were previously criticized for.