bonoboTP
3 months ago
It's interesting and heartwarming to see how similar the spirit of many successful software projects was. Creative collaboration, open play, extremely high trust, by people who really intrinsically love what they do.
It goes against so much of the MBA-worldview and bigcorp offices.
Unix, GNU, Linux, early Python, early Rockstar Games etc.
philipallstar
3 months ago
> extremely high trust
A lot of problems disappear when you have a high-trust societies, projects, companies, etc.
bonoboTP
3 months ago
Yes, but that requires admitting that the employees are flesh and bones humans with human social relationships between them and this stuff can't be tabulated and accounted and bean-counted. And it's rather outright seen as a risk factor, makes people less fungible, there's a risk that they gang up against the management, or there could be legal risk if they build too much of an insider culture etc.
Highly aligned motivated and talented people with shared core values (like the pioneer ethos of hackers, tech optimism etc, and cultural references etc) can achieve so much. And they tend to work odd hours and overtime because they want to make the thing, and not because of hoping to get rich.
Now I have two things to say about this.
First, this type of passion is special and a manager can't hope to simply force it, and if it's demanded then all you get will be talkers who know the lingo of being so super passionate. The thing must be worth being passionate about and the team has to be aligned with the goal and have latitude to shape the project. This kind of work bes happens when the higher up kinda forget the team and they just intrinsically do it. It can't be planned.
Second, some people are very opposed to these hight effort, almost obsessed teams because they see it as unfair ideals or unfair competition, because obviously someone with a family who has to pick up the kids at 4 pm can't do this cracked push overnight and sleeping at the office etc. But greatness simy cannot be made from steady, fixed-pace 9-5 jobs with work life balance and atomized employees. And that's okay, for most things we don't need greatness just okayness. But often people still can't stand that there are such great teams and want to drag them down in one way or another.
foldr
3 months ago
> But often people still can't stand that there are such great teams and want to drag them down in one way or another.
This seems like an unnecessary attribution of malicious intentions. The obvious explanation for why people often oppose a culture of long hours is that long hours suck for anyone with a life outside of work. You explain this yourself with the example of someone who has kids.
bonoboTP
3 months ago
Yes, but it shouldn't be mandatory for "regular" jobs. People often dislike the idea that there are some ambitious, agentic, talented, motivated people who really put in the hours and their job is simultaneously their hobby etc.
Again, I'm not for the cringe corporate pretending to be one big family smiling and singing. But clearly there are really strong, aligned teams that want to accomplish something and have the corresponding freedom to creatively shape the path forward. And such teams are just vastly more effective and can do stuff in a weekend that a traditional committee-based process would not get done in a year.
But again, this is a fraction of a percent of people who are built for that kind of work. But let some people just be weird and misfits! Somehow the same standards are not applied to athletes who train insane hours or musicians on tour.
My point is, let's be grateful to have such exceptional people instead of complaining about them or how they set an unrealistic standard or whatever.
foldr
3 months ago
If these exceptional people are making it necessary for me to work very long hours too, then it’s fair enough for me to complain about that, no? Very few of the people you are talking about are curing cancer (so to speak), so why are the rest of us required to be grateful to them?
Let’s look at it another way. Someone who’s willing to work an 80 hour week for the same pay that I get is roughly equivalent to someone who’ll do my job for half the pay (leaving aside the dubious productivity benefits of long hours). Should I be grateful for the existence of such a person? We do not usually romanticize people who are willing to do professional jobs for low compensation. Why romanticize people who work crazy hours? If I voluntarily took a 50% pay cut, would you wax lyrical about how the world needs more exceptional people like me?
> And such teams are just vastly more effective and can do stuff in a weekend that a traditional committee-based process would not get done in a year.
Here you’re conflating two different things. Small agile teams that have the freedom to work without bureaucratic overhead are great, but there is no inherent need for them to work crazy hours. If anything, long hours are often a symptom of an environment where people are judged on how long they stay in the office rather than on the quality of their work.
bonoboTP
3 months ago
This is beypnd jobs and corporations and is about humanity and civilization. A small minority of people in every era actually pushed on any kind of frontier. That's ok. We need people who just execute the mundane tasks too, that's most of us.
But giving space to exceptional people is not even that expensive. The overtime doesn't even have to be documented. Just leave them alone. There aren't enough of them to truly outcompete regular people.
For most people focusing on family and having a mediocre career is optimal and there really isn't anything wrong with that. But you won't get top achievement out of that. Nor will you get that from forcing people to be in the office. You get it from a rare special alignment of stars where somehow you get an aligned high trust team. Just don't trample that flower, that's all.
Regarding cancer. Lots of cancer research, simulations and drug discovery use GPUs that were only developed because there was a gaming industry which was kickstarted by a bunch of outlier nerds like John Carmack and the popularity of those 3d games enabled economies of scale for making specialized hardware, GPUs. And then other tinkerers who likely also pulled lots of all nighters developed GPGPU, general purpose computations on GPUs which was not the original purpose of GPUs at all. Seeing the research success of such uses, NVIDIA developed Cuda and made GPUs more convenient in non graphics use cases. You just never know. Let the outlier people do their thing and pursue their passion. There will never be a world where all the average employees can have this kind of output. Somebody has to dream a vision, the implementation tasks don't fall out of the sky. Tall poppy syndrome is very bad for societies.
foldr
3 months ago
The vast majority of people working very long hours aren't pushing any frontiers. They are just trying to become partners in a law firm or get promoted at McKinsey. (Or, if we look outside our middle class bubble for a moment, they are working in kitchens and cleaning apartments for below minimum wage.)
I'm not convinced that a significant number of people actually do object to other people working long hours. It's only a problem if unreasonable expectations become the norm – in which case you don't have to attribute malicious motives to people ('tall poppy syndrome') to explain their objections. They object simply because they don't want to spend all their time working, which is easy enough to comprehend.
duxup
3 months ago
I worked at a big corp for a long time.
Then I moved to a small company.
I'm convinced that you can't ever get much done outside high trust environments, you just can't. The bureaucracy eventually takes over, managers generally wall things off, keep things secret, erode trust, new people can't even navigate the bureaucracy are so far from effecting change, new ideas just DOA.
Not to say big companies or big projects can't make money / be well adopted, but you want to really do change, try new things sometime this century? ... need high trust.
ThrowawayR2
3 months ago
The Bell Telephone monopoly was among the biggest of the bigcorps of that era and had no shortage of MBAs. A better characterization might be that the Ma Bell had money to burn and computerization was a hot trend so the bean counters were willing to back speculative projects and research, not unlike VCs throwing money around.
bonoboTP
3 months ago
There's a danger of romanticizing the past, but I think there was just less metric based pressure on these people than today. In the 70s, the whole consultant-led transformation of all corporations wasn't fully complete yet.
cestith
3 months ago
It’s worth remembering this was Bell Labs. It was a research and development organization. These weren’t line maintenance people and telephone operators free to create things during their work. They did a lot of applied research and a lot of pure research at Bell Labs back in the day.
Lasers, fiber optics, underseas cables, communication satellites, transistors, discovery of the cosmic microwave background, and more came out of that organization. It was largely supported by the consent deal between the US government and AT&T that allowed them a telephone monopoly so long as their non-telephone research and inventions didn’t get marketed separately. So they’d create things that helped the company and the rest of the world, and then just release those things to the rest of the world.
gbacon
3 months ago
The article even makes reference to the use-or-lose approach to managing a departmental budget: And history shows that it happened partly because the department paying for it “had extra money, and if they didn’t spend it, they’d lose it the next year…”
fuzztester
3 months ago
Like in government departments and also in some companies that have a similar mentality.
busfahrer
3 months ago
> early Rockstar Games
I did not expect to see them in this list, can you elaborate?
aap_
3 months ago
As for Rockstar North/DMA specifically: It was a bunch of nerds making games in Scotland. From having reverse engineered gta3 and vice city and therefore knowing the code of these games quite intimately, i can tell that even at that time (i don't know what exactly was meant by "early") they were still a fairly small bunch of very talented people building the best game together that they could. No huge engines or design patterns, just very straightforward, well or reasonably well written code that does just what's it supposed to. All from scratch, the tooling as well. Of course that's just my interpretation (and maybe i'm projecting a bit) but i imagine it must have been a very fun project for the people involved. Doesn't reek much of management, bureaucracy and questionable practices getting in the way.
quadhome
3 months ago
From scratch? AIUI GTA3 and Vice City were built on RenderWare.
Cpoll
3 months ago
RenderWare was the preeminent PS2 graphics library. My impression is that it's more akin to OpenGL than to Unreal?
aap_
3 months ago
That's true but it was little more than a portable rendering API, which was of course very useful for the PS2, but probably less interesting for the PC ports. So if you want to count that, you're right, it's not totally from scratch. But it wasn't built on an actual game engine.
bonoboTP
3 months ago
I just remembered this video https://youtu.be/7vWSi44ZTSw and it seemed like a chill place with nerds having fun making something. (Actually they were still DMA at this time, not Rockstar).
And as for the achievement, the product turned into a franchise with the biggest entertainment products ever made (GTA 5/6).
BSDobelix
3 months ago
I would add "Ken Olsen"-DEC and Sun Microsystems.