Synadia and TigerBeetle Commit $512k USD to the Zig Software Foundation

280 pointsposted 4 hours ago
by derekcollison

70 Comments

eggy

3 hours ago

In performing an assessment of which ecosystem and PL to use to develop our high-integrity automation software for mission-critical applications, we assessed Rust, Zig, and Ada/SPARK. Rust had the support behind it from a big corp., a passionate developer community, and some adoption by significant entities, but none with cyber-physical systems. And it has been interesting to see some developers leaving Rust for Zig for the sheer enjoyment of using it instead. Our software will be controlling machinery overhead and other close coupling with machinery and people. Rust does not have the legacy in these areas or the ecosystem to cover formal verification. Zig was considered, but was even more new than Rust, and had similar disadvantages as listed for Rust. SPARK, a relatively newer PL, a subset of Ada, has legacy in high-integrity, mission-critical applications, and formal verification tooling that along with human review, makes it the strongest choice to meet the government's latest push for such critical software, and the language though verbose, is low friction to learn and apply. I found Zig to be a great second choice, and look forward to both Rust and Zig's future. Glad to see Zig moving along since Andrew started it. Congrats Andrew and the team currently pulling this off!

7thaccount

3 hours ago

Interesting to see this. I bought a book on Ada 2012 awhile back. Pretty cool stuff - especially with Spark.

The license model always made me uncomfortable for when you were using the commercial compilers though. Does this lock you into Spark forever?

tayo42

2 hours ago

>leaving Rust for Zig for the sheer enjoyment of using it instead.

What do people find more enjoyable?

gorjusborg

2 hours ago

Zig feels like a better C with modern tooling. It is a tool that works for me.

Rust feels like a better C++ with modern tooling. I am a tool that works for it.

npalli

a minute ago

Rust is a worse C++ with modern tooling. Whether or not you are a tool, leave it up to you.

pyrolistical

an hour ago

This is what people don’t understand. Zig and Rust are not competitors. Rust is a better C++ but C was the good part of C++.

LexiMax

2 hours ago

Some people enjoy the relative simplicity and straight forwardness of C, some folks enjoy the flexibility and zero cost abstractions C++ gives you.

Some people can appreciate both. I actually like both languages for different reasons and I don't really understand why they're consistently being pitted against each other. Language wars are... for lack of a more appropriate and less-crass term... stupid.

hnlmorg

an hour ago

> Language wars are... for lack of a more appropriate and less-crass term... stupid.

I couldn’t agree more!

tayo42

2 hours ago

With limited time and mental energy and I woukd say the languages are fighting for attention. The war is over why should I pay attention and for territory in my head.

LexiMax

12 minutes ago

Because this industry is a knowledge-based industry, and it's a good idea in general to always be honing your skills and learning something new.

Even if you don't have any intentions of using a new language in your day to day career, there's usually a few super-interesting morsels in there that you can add to your knowledge banks.

I've personally lost count of the number of times I took a concept I learned in another language or technology stack and applied it to my day job.

ozgrakkurt

2 hours ago

I find it easier to develop low level code like file format, async io library and similar stuff in zig

lagniappe

2 hours ago

Speaking for myself, the community is more humble and kind on the zig side, and their chats are more on-topic.

tkz1312

2 hours ago

Zig is orders of magnitude more pleasant and enjoyable to use than Rust.

estebank

2 hours ago

>>> Zig is more enjoyable than Rust

>> Why is that?

> Zig is more enjoyable than Rust

You didn't really leave the GP more informed than before.

littlestymaar

2 hours ago

It's like saying bacon is better than cheese. I totally get why some people would feel that way, but it's far from a universal feeling.

Tastes are just subjective.

lenkite

19 minutes ago

I think most folks would agree that Rust is an "acquired" taste. You need to kneel to the borrow-checker and develop something like a Stockholm syndrome before you find the language delicious.

epage

2 minutes ago

I'd guess that in 99% of cases, if the borrow checker is a problem for you in Rust then you are likely not ready yet for C or Zig, particularly when you need to work in a team where mainatainability by others is critical.

There are some cases the borrow checker requires you to go through hoops for but I see that as a win for adding friction and raising visibility of weird patterns.

And yes, there are cases that can't be expressed the same way,

vatsachakrvthy

14 minutes ago

It's not kneeling it's literally just eliminating bugs. It's kind of like saying that we kneel to logic while doing math

anymouse123456

an hour ago

They aren't even close.

Trying to write Rust as a noob feels like being in a blackout swamp, waist deep in muck, fighting through thick air and trying, but failing to run from danger. Being utterly constrained in every direction.

Writing Zig as a noob feels like having the clouds part to reveal a bright, sunny Spring clearing and suddenly being able to cover land in a cheerful group with clarity, purpose and focus.

[Edit] Of course, this is purely subjective, obviously a skill issue and YMMV

derekcollison

4 hours ago

tm11zz

an hour ago

> We run a fuzzing fleet of 1,000 dedicated CPU cores 24/7.

that a lot

tazjin

an hour ago

Assuming they're being economical (and considering the level of thinking TigerBeetle seems to put into stuff - they probably are) this might be only a few beefy physical servers.

For them it seems safety and QA is a large part of the sales pitch, so that seems worth it.

jorangreef

4 hours ago

Thank you Derek, such a pleasure to do this with you.

praveenperera

4 hours ago

Are you guys using Zig?, love NATS by the way.

derekcollison

3 hours ago

We are waiting on the IO abstraction for a supported Zig client (There are others though today), but this is specifically for a new initiative at Synadia that we will share more details about soon!

jtrueb

an hour ago

The reason for not choosing Rust still doesn't make any sense to me. If you don’t want to OOM, need correctness, are following the power of ten (where you aren’t allocating anyways), I don’t see the conflict or harm of additional enforced correctness.

Also, Rust does support checked arithmetic and has stable toolchains.

matklad

a minute ago

There's a change in the tradeoffs in the above scenario:

- you still get extra benefit from Rust, but the magnitude of the benefit is reduced (e.g., no UAF without F).

- you still get extra drawbacks from Rust, but the magnitude of drawbacks is increased, as Rust generally punishes you for not allocating (boxing is a common escape hatch to avoid complex lifetimes).

Just how much tradeoff is shifted is hard to qualify unambiguously, but, from my PoV (Rust since 2015, TB/Zig since late 2022), Zig was and is the right choice in this context.

jorangreef

an hour ago

Out of interest, did you read the two posts [0][1] linked in there by matklad, creator of rust-analyzer as well as IntelliJ Rust, on our team?

Suffice to say, we know the intrusive memory and comptime patterns we use in our code base, and they wouldn't be as natural to express in a language other than Zig.

Rust is a great language, but Zig made more sense for what I wanted to create in TigerBeetle.

[0] https://matklad.github.io/2023/03/26/zig-and-rust.html

[1] https://lobste.rs/s/uhtjdz/rust_vs_zig_reality_somewhat_frie...

jtrueb

an hour ago

Yeah, I think BDFL wants to use Zig. I understand that it is nice for Zig to feel more like C, and that can be fun. If the toolchain is so far away from being mature, how long will it take the database to be mature?

Since previous comment was edited. I would clarify that I don’t doubt the engineering capabilities, just the timeline. A from scratch database in _established_ toolchains take 5-10 years. The Zig toolchain also is going to be evolving in the same timeframe or longer. The codegen, linking, architecture specific bugs etc. Isn’t it double the effort to bring to bear in the market?

jorangreef

36 minutes ago

You're right! In the past, distributed databases written without Deterministic Simulation Testing (DST) would typically take around ~10 years (~5 years for the consensus protocol and ~5 years for the storage engine). And then not without bugs.

However, and we write about this also in the post, but TigerStyle and DST enabled us to ship TigerBeetle to production in 3.5 years, in less time, to a higher standard, and to be the first distributed database with an explicit storage fault model (Kyle Kingsbury added new storage fault injectors to Jepsen) solving Protocol-Aware Recovery.

Our Jepsen audit is here (also linked in the post): https://jepsen.io/analyses/tigerbeetle-0.16.11

For more on TigerStyle as a methodology, hope you enjoy this talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3WYdYyjek4

jtrueb

23 minutes ago

I was on a team with a similar timeline with C++ (4 year). All the language and toolchain difficulties came after shipping. Meeting new customer needs meant shifting from greenfield to brownfield engineering. We were chasing down strange platform and provider behaviors. Adding features while maintaining performance and correctness, meant relying on knowledge of tools available in the broader community. Solutions for build issues came through a combination of in-house effort and industry partners with related experience. Having two stable compilers (gcc and clang) was super helpful.

drfuchs

3 hours ago

Real programmers would have donated $524,288. But seriously good news nonetheless.

ncruces

a few seconds ago

You can chip in remainder in soft monthly installments of $512 over two years.

bryant

3 hours ago

For those who don't intuitively think in base 2,

2¹⁹ bytes, or 512KiB.

benatkin

20 minutes ago

I'd prefer to express it in hexadecimals, and 1 would be 256 cents. So it would come out to be very slightly more, at 0x00030000.00 hexadollars, or 196608.00 hexadollars, or 50331648 cents – $503,316.48

I may have been looking at the binary year 2038 countdown :D https://retr0.id/stuff/2038/

elthor89

4 hours ago

Is nats not written in go? Or does this foreshadow a switch to zig?

galangalalgol

3 hours ago

They have clients in many languages. But the zig repo is still just a placeholder. They often have bare bones servers in the languages too, like rust has one, but I think they are mostly for testing.

lxe

39 minutes ago

I'm absolutely struggling to understand what Synadia even does. it's been an infuriating experience navigating through their marketing site. It's been minutes and I still don't understand what it is. What is NATS?

Edit: I had to google what NATS.IO is. The marketing site is infuriatingly useless. Please, can we stop doing this?

Edit: At the bottom on the footer it says compare NATS to Kafka. It took me to a page that requires me to enter my email, name, and a message in order to download the white paper. I flipped over my desk in rage.

webdevver

3 minutes ago

i asked gemini to investigate on my behalf, and it basically said that Synadia is to NATS what HiveMQ is to MQTT. seems fair enough.

thank goodness for llms to spare us the marketing drivel!

dangoodmanUT

4 hours ago

> For each of our companies to donate $256,000 in monthly installments over the next two years, with Synadia matching TigerBeetle, for a total of $512,000

Why over 2 years?

Like VC investment, Id assume a lump sum up front allow them to move faster with that money (hiring the right people sooner, etc.)

I wonder if projects like this care more about predictability of income (e.g. not hiring people depending on future funding to sustain them)

Aurornis

2 hours ago

I assume it’s being budgeted out of their monthly cash flow, not coming out of cash reserves.

> Id assume a lump sum up front allow them to move faster with that money (hiring the right people sooner, etc.)

On the other hand, the monthly payments mean they’re less likely to overcommit their spending up front.

If they’re hiring someone with twice-monthly paychecks, receiving the money up front doesn’t make much difference unless they want to hire based on projections of higher future donations, which is a risky move.

SoftTalker

2 hours ago

This is a donation, not an investment in the VC sense.

mikkupikku

3 hours ago

Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast.

gethly

3 hours ago

I heard that very recently in a movie, just cannot recall which one.

mikkupikku

2 hours ago

It's popularly claimed to be a Navy SEAL saying. I have no idea if that's true, but I think it has some broad merit to many things, almost anything which benefits from careful planning or training. In this context, throwing a big lump sum of money all at once could pressure the developers to spend money / hire too fast without careful planning. Spreading the payments out could be the donor's way of saying they don't want radical hasty changes, they just want to help out in a way.

andrewflnr

an hour ago

It seems quite wide spread by now, at least. I heard it in at least one martial arts class (and something what recently that I can't place). The people who said it could have gotten it from military background.

Anyway, it should be widespread, since it's basically true, though perhaps more relevant for physical skills than for donation scheduling.

kapitar

3 hours ago

Not a recent movie, but it was mentioned in Shooter, a Mark Wahlberg film from way back when

RedShift1

3 hours ago

2007 is way back when territory? :utf8_shocked_emoji:

trenchpilgrim

3 hours ago

Most businesses prefer to make payments monthly because it's easier on cash flow.

codegladiator

4 hours ago

There is always a burden of deployment of assets

lxe

an hour ago

Is Synadia related to Shazam? The logo is pretty much the same.

jihadjihad

2 minutes ago

I opened Shazam so I could look at the logos side-by-side, and it is indeed pretty odd how alike they are. Even the angle of the shapes is virtually the same.

It’s a little OT, but interesting nonetheless.

meindnoch

2 hours ago

That's about 1 year's worth of salary of a full-time dev.

jmull

24 minutes ago

According to their financial statement, the Zig Foundation pays contributors $60/hr, and spent $154K on their single employee (Andrew Kelley) in 2024.

So that's around 3-4+ years of development.

(Also, that $154K might include significant employer expenses not typically included in salary, like, e.g. healthcare.)

https://ziglang.org/news/2025-financials/

trollbridge

2 hours ago

Where can I get a $512k a year salary job?

rk06

an hour ago

I will work for 5 Yeats for 500k

renewiltord

an hour ago

More like 1 month. I'd even say it's a week for a competent one, and maybe a day for a 10x developer. These days it'll pay for maybe one hour of a HRT or Jane Street intern and maybe a few seconds of someone at renowned AI lab Cluely.

9front

an hour ago

That's a pledge only! Let me know when Synadia & TiregBeetle actually send money to Zig Foundation.

jorangreef

an hour ago

Joran from TigerBeetle here!

TigerBeetle actually already donated around ~$100K this past year. We just didn't announce it.

With revenue increasing, we wanted to increase our donation to the foundation to $128K per year going forward, and Synadia were keen to match. The only reason we announced it this time is to encourage other companies to join us.

Finally, as I wrote in TB's post [1], both companies have already donated the first installment, and Derek and I have also both been donating as individual donors in our personal capacity since around 2018.

Hope that clears it up for you! :)

Please join us and consider donating (or increasing your donation): https://ziglang.org/zsf/

[1] https://tigerbeetle.com/blog/2025-10-25-synadia-and-tigerbee...

9front

an hour ago

Very well done, sir! Now you challenged me to make a donation also. However, as an individual I assure you that it won't match yours.

jorangreef

an hour ago

Thank you, my friend! Let me know when it's done (only so that we can celebrate it together—good faith for the win!).