eggy
3 hours ago
In performing an assessment of which ecosystem and PL to use to develop our high-integrity automation software for mission-critical applications, we assessed Rust, Zig, and Ada/SPARK. Rust had the support behind it from a big corp., a passionate developer community, and some adoption by significant entities, but none with cyber-physical systems. And it has been interesting to see some developers leaving Rust for Zig for the sheer enjoyment of using it instead. Our software will be controlling machinery overhead and other close coupling with machinery and people. Rust does not have the legacy in these areas or the ecosystem to cover formal verification. Zig was considered, but was even more new than Rust, and had similar disadvantages as listed for Rust. SPARK, a relatively newer PL, a subset of Ada, has legacy in high-integrity, mission-critical applications, and formal verification tooling that along with human review, makes it the strongest choice to meet the government's latest push for such critical software, and the language though verbose, is low friction to learn and apply. I found Zig to be a great second choice, and look forward to both Rust and Zig's future. Glad to see Zig moving along since Andrew started it. Congrats Andrew and the team currently pulling this off!
7thaccount
3 hours ago
Interesting to see this. I bought a book on Ada 2012 awhile back. Pretty cool stuff - especially with Spark.
The license model always made me uncomfortable for when you were using the commercial compilers though. Does this lock you into Spark forever?
tayo42
2 hours ago
>leaving Rust for Zig for the sheer enjoyment of using it instead.
What do people find more enjoyable?
gorjusborg
2 hours ago
Zig feels like a better C with modern tooling. It is a tool that works for me.
Rust feels like a better C++ with modern tooling. I am a tool that works for it.
npalli
a minute ago
Rust is a worse C++ with modern tooling. Whether or not you are a tool, leave it up to you.
pyrolistical
an hour ago
This is what people don’t understand. Zig and Rust are not competitors. Rust is a better C++ but C was the good part of C++.
rishabhaiover
an hour ago
You're a poet, kind sir.
LexiMax
2 hours ago
Some people enjoy the relative simplicity and straight forwardness of C, some folks enjoy the flexibility and zero cost abstractions C++ gives you.
Some people can appreciate both. I actually like both languages for different reasons and I don't really understand why they're consistently being pitted against each other. Language wars are... for lack of a more appropriate and less-crass term... stupid.
hnlmorg
an hour ago
> Language wars are... for lack of a more appropriate and less-crass term... stupid.
I couldn’t agree more!
tayo42
2 hours ago
With limited time and mental energy and I woukd say the languages are fighting for attention. The war is over why should I pay attention and for territory in my head.
LexiMax
12 minutes ago
Because this industry is a knowledge-based industry, and it's a good idea in general to always be honing your skills and learning something new.
Even if you don't have any intentions of using a new language in your day to day career, there's usually a few super-interesting morsels in there that you can add to your knowledge banks.
I've personally lost count of the number of times I took a concept I learned in another language or technology stack and applied it to my day job.
ozgrakkurt
2 hours ago
I find it easier to develop low level code like file format, async io library and similar stuff in zig
lagniappe
2 hours ago
Speaking for myself, the community is more humble and kind on the zig side, and their chats are more on-topic.
tkz1312
2 hours ago
Zig is orders of magnitude more pleasant and enjoyable to use than Rust.
estebank
2 hours ago
>>> Zig is more enjoyable than Rust
>> Why is that?
> Zig is more enjoyable than Rust
You didn't really leave the GP more informed than before.
littlestymaar
2 hours ago
It's like saying bacon is better than cheese. I totally get why some people would feel that way, but it's far from a universal feeling.
Tastes are just subjective.
lenkite
19 minutes ago
I think most folks would agree that Rust is an "acquired" taste. You need to kneel to the borrow-checker and develop something like a Stockholm syndrome before you find the language delicious.
epage
2 minutes ago
I'd guess that in 99% of cases, if the borrow checker is a problem for you in Rust then you are likely not ready yet for C or Zig, particularly when you need to work in a team where mainatainability by others is critical.
There are some cases the borrow checker requires you to go through hoops for but I see that as a win for adding friction and raising visibility of weird patterns.
And yes, there are cases that can't be expressed the same way,
vatsachakrvthy
14 minutes ago
It's not kneeling it's literally just eliminating bugs. It's kind of like saying that we kneel to logic while doing math
anymouse123456
an hour ago
They aren't even close.
Trying to write Rust as a noob feels like being in a blackout swamp, waist deep in muck, fighting through thick air and trying, but failing to run from danger. Being utterly constrained in every direction.
Writing Zig as a noob feels like having the clouds part to reveal a bright, sunny Spring clearing and suddenly being able to cover land in a cheerful group with clarity, purpose and focus.
[Edit] Of course, this is purely subjective, obviously a skill issue and YMMV