In orbit you have to slow down to speed up

50 pointsposted 7 days ago
by beardyw

60 Comments

ralfd

3 hours ago

I have a hard time imagining physics. For example take a train moving 100 kmh to the north which wants to reverse direction to the south. It has to break and then accelerate again, a very costly operation. Except when the tracks make a turn? But how can a northward momentum change to a southward momentum?

The same confusion I have when trying to imagine satellites going around Earth or slingshot maneuvers. Would an X-Wing turn in space differently than in the atmosphere of Hoth? Would it in space just rotate, but keep its forward (now backwards) momentum instead of turning like a fighter jet?

NitpickLawyer

2 hours ago

> The same confusion I have when trying to imagine satellites going around Earth or slingshot maneuvers.

I can't recommend KSP enough. It's a "silly" game with "on rails physics" (so not exactly 100% accurate wrt general relativity stuff) but it's got a very nice interface and it will make you "get" orbital mechanics by dragging stuff around. You'll get an intuition for it after a few hours of gameplay / yt video tutorials. Really cool game.

montagg

2 hours ago

This is how I now “get” orbital mechanics better than I ever did trying to study it. Play is the best education.

ErroneousBosh

2 hours ago

> For example take a train moving 100 kmh to the north which wants to reverse direction to the south. It has to break and then accelerate again, a very costly operation. Except when the tracks make a turn? But how can a northward momentum change to a southward momentum?

Your train is decelerating, and then accelerating southwards. It really is.

If you were on a train that was travelling in a straight line northwards and the driver applied the brakes, it would decelerate, which really is acceleration with a negative value (and I can hear that in my old high school physics teacher's voice, hope you're doing well, Mr Siwek). You would feel yourself being thrown forwards if the acceleration was strong enough because your momentum wants to keep you moving north.

If you were on a train that was travelling around a U-shaped bit of track looping from northbound to southbound, then you'd be thrown towards the outside of the curve. Guess what? The train is not moving north so fast, and your momentum is trying to keep you moving north.

The difference here is that if you brake the train to a stop and throw it in reverse then you're dissipating energy as heat to stop it, and then applying more energy from the drivetrain to get it moving again, but if you go round a U-shaped track the energy going north is now energy going east. You have not added or removed energy, just pointed it a different direction.

GeneralMayhem

an hour ago

Turning around a track definitely dissipates some heat energy through increased friction with the rails. Imagine taking a semicircle turn and making it tighter and tighter. At the limit, the train is basically hitting a solid wall and rebounding in the other direction, which would certainly transfer some energy.

The energy question is this: going from a 100kmh-due-north momentum to a 100kmh-due-south momentum via slowing, stopping, and accelerating again clearly takes energy. You can also switch the momentum vector by driving in a semicircle. Turning around a semicircle takes some energy, but how much - and where does it come from? Does it depend on how tight the circle is - or does that just spread it out over a wider time/distance? If you had an electric train with zero loss from battery to wheels, and you needed to get it from going north to going south, what would be the most efficient way to do it?

btilly

2 hours ago

What's going on here is that your momentum changes whenever you experience a force. Your energy changes whenever you experience a force towards or from the direction that you are traveling.

The force from the rails at all points is at right angles to the direction of motion. So your energy doesn't change. Your momentum is constantly changing. And you're doing it by shoving the Earth the other way. But the Earth is big enough that nobody notices.

Now to the orbital example. In the Newtonian approximation, an orbit works similarly. In a circular orbit, you're exchanging momentum with the planet, but your energy remains the same. The closer the orbit, the more speed you need to maintain this against a stronger gravity, and the faster you have to move.

In an elliptical orbit, you're constantly exchanging momentum with the planet, but now you're also exchanging between gravitational potential energy, and kinetic energy. You speed up as you fall in, and slow down as you move out. Which means that you are moving below orbital speed at the far end of your orbit, and above when you are close.

Now to this paradox. Slowing down causes you to shift which elliptical orbit you are in, to one which is overall faster. Therefore slowing down puts you ahead in half an orbit, and then you'll never stop being ahead.

kbelder

25 minutes ago

A very related physics issue that boggles my mind is when you roll a disk, like a wheel. You can roll the disk north, and it'll lean, curve, and end up going south. What force changed the direction of the wheel?

I understand it, intellectually. It's pushing sideways against the surface as it leans and spins, but it just doesn't feel right. I have no intuition for it.

ambicapter

3 hours ago

In your train example, the rails exert a force on the train as it turns. In orbit, the planets are constantly exerting a force on the satellite.

wongarsu

2 hours ago

A train has momentum in the direction of the track. If the track makes a 180° turn the train will lose some momentum to increased friction with the track during the turn, but essentially the momentum still follows the track.

A fighter jet (or X-Wing in orbit) kind of generates its own "track" with the guiding forces of the wings. You can still do a 180° turn and keep a significant part of your momentum. Though the guiding effects are a lot softer, so your losses are a lot worse

A satellite (or an X-Wing in orbit) has no rails that can go in arbitrary directions. Any momentum is in "orbit direction", but orbits work in weirder ways. If you make your orbit highly elliptical then at the highest point you will have traded nearly all your kinetic energy for potential energy and can make a 180° turn pretty cheaply (because it's only a small change in speed)

Xerox9213

3 hours ago

When you brake you generate a ton of heat.

Doing a U-turn generates less heat, but still quite a bit. The train will have to slow down depending on the radius of the curve, and even then the turn will slow it down some more.

But yeah, less heat generation means kinetic energy is conserved.

Cars have to slow down when they turn because it’s too much to ask of the tires to accelerate (throttle) and turn, since turning is in itself acceleration.

NetMageSCW

2 hours ago

Caveat: when the tires are already at the limit of adhesion (e.g. on an F1 car). In a road car, you are not normally turning at 1g and probably can’t accelerate at 1g so you can turn and accelerate when you have enough margin.

It’s just the average driver doesn’t realize how much margin is available.

lucianbr

2 hours ago

You too can change direction easier if there is an object (like a pole or something) you can push/pull against. Try it, maybe it will help your intuition.

Run towards a pole and then try to come back around it, once without touching it and once using it to swing around. That's the role the curved tracks play. You exchange momentum with the object, and in the end with the Earth.

exe34

2 hours ago

I feel like none of the answers have addressed you train example correctly. The momentum is exchanged with the Earth. So the Earth+train still have the same total momentum. The energy is mostly conserved (ignoring the friction that's needed to stay on the track). You can do the same by running past a lamp post and extending a hand to grab it - you'll change direction.

stoneforger

4 hours ago

They should really teach physics using KSP.

matheusmoreira

3 hours ago

Yeah, it's amazing. With enough docking and maneuvering practice I developed some kind of intuition for moving in space. I could maneuver without meticulously planning the burns.

Still can't leave Eve though...

vannucci

4 hours ago

I tried to teach a group of HS students about orbital mechanics as a high school physics teacher using KSP. It was... difficult. Not impossible. But I agree it's an excellent learning tool.

hobs

3 hours ago

Right, the UI/UX is a lot to just get to the rocket part. KSP is probably the best game that forces that into your head with a classic simulation that's fun, but I gotta say something like Rocket League was better at building my intuition for rocket behaviors.

dabluecaboose

3 hours ago

I'm a professional astrodynamicist and I owe my base level understanding of orbital mechanics to KSP. It's a fantastic resource for learning the basics of Keplerian motion.

Also, obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1356/

taneq

2 hours ago

Arguably aerodynamics is confusing on a whole other level to mere orbital dynamics. :D

dabluecaboose

2 hours ago

I washed my hands of aerodynamics after I got my first job in satellite navigation. Messy stuff, that Navier-Stokes business

M95D

2 hours ago

No, it's simple. Just make sure the airplane falls nose-first if it ever stops (speed<stall).

aaronblohowiak

3 hours ago

I wish ksp 2 hadn't been a boondoggle

mikkupikku

3 hours ago

I haven't kept up with it, but hopefully Kitten Space Agency will be able to take up the torch.

delichon

4 hours ago

I doubt SpaceX could put a satellite in orbit with KSP physics. Just the absence of realistic thermal conduction would prevent it. The outer skin temperature typically peaks around 300–600 °C during the densest part of the atmosphere. If you calculate those forces wrong the rocket has a bad day. Best case it is over engineered and has a reduced payload. They might as well do their calculations with pi equal to 3.

0_____0

4 hours ago

What does thermal conduction affect? Is it mostly practical spacecraft construction, or actually related to orbital mechanics?

bogzz

4 hours ago

The FAR mod is touted as being realistic; I haven't played it though.

iso1631

2 hours ago

https://xkcd.com/2205/ comes to mind with your pi approximation.

Nobody is saying KSP physics is perfect.

Until I played KSP, I had no idea how hard orbit was compared with just going up into space (and generally the greater population thinks the same -- they think that sending New Shephard upto 100km is about the same as sending a Dragon into orbit). I had no idea how you move in orbit, how getting from low earth equitorial orbit to Jupiter takes less energy than getting from the same ship to a polar orbit (and even then that the only real way to change your orbit like that is to go out beyond the moon and back), etc.

ChicagoBoy11

4 hours ago

For anyone who is remotely interested in this, a considerable chunk of the Gemini program was all about solving some of the practicalities involved with Rendezvous, and it is quite interesting even hearing some of the astronauts come to grips with some of the physics while orbiting in space trying the various types of rendezvous and docking maneuvers that were attempted.

QuiCasseRien

3 hours ago

could it be possible to flag a thread when you need to pay or register to read an article ??

very annoyoing, the subject looks good, open tab and rohhhhhhhh... paid or register.

Scubabear68

an hour ago

This brings back fond memories of Heinlein's juvenile sci fi series.

yabones

3 hours ago

Forwards is up, up is back, back is down, down is forwards.

geon

3 hours ago

Or in the words of Larry Niven (The integral trees)

East takes you Out

Out takes you West

West takes you In

In takes you East

NitpickLawyer

2 hours ago

Down is where the enemy gate is.

taneq

2 hours ago

So precise, he piss on a plate and never splash.

brudgers

5 days ago

A similar thing is true when cornering a race car when measuring time through the corner.

taneq

2 hours ago

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

dotancohen

4 hours ago

How so?

anonymars

4 hours ago

"Faster" (higher speed) = wider cornering radius = more distance = slower

wrigby

3 hours ago

But you exit going faster, which means you make up time on the straight after the corner.

rtkwe

3 hours ago

It's a balance, many of these cars can accelerate and decelerate very hard so the time to get back to the full speed for the next section is fairly short reducing the effect of slowing down. The effect of taking a too wide racing line though means a large multiple in the distance travelled.

HPsquared

2 hours ago

Cars can usually brake and turn harder than they can accelerate.

You also tend to spend more time on the straight after the corner, than in the corner itself

So you mostly optimise for corner exit speed, especially if the car has particularly slow acceleration and a long straight comes after the corner.

oarsinsync

3 hours ago

Assuming there is a long enough straight before the next corner

taneq

2 hours ago

Yeah depends on the corner but the general thumb-suck approximation is sound.

rascul

3 hours ago

If there's banking, it can change things.

everyone

3 hours ago

The distance has no effect.. Its all about speed, you want to take the line that lets you get through the corner while maintaining the highest speed. If you are going faster and spend as little time as possible breaking and accelerating you will gain time. Also a higher exit speed means you will be going faster for the entire straight after the corner making a very big time difference.

Your car, depending on how much grip it has + other variables, will have a theoretical minimum diameter circle it can drive around at various speeds. The higher the speed the bigger the circle. Finding your racing line is just a matter of fitting the biggest circular arc inside the space available in the corner.

Ideally you want to break in a straight line before the corner and reach the speed your car can drive the circle at at just the moment you enter it.

Theres more nuance when it comes to compound corners, FR vs FF cars, oversteer understeer, hills bumps etc. But the basic theory is simply fitting circles.

https://ibb.co/VY11TpTM

bluGill

3 hours ago

You are generally not taking a perfect circle corner. You can/should be slowing down as you enter the corner and then speeding up even before you exit. In this way you can shorten the distance traveled while getting a higher exit speed - sometimes higher than the largest possible circle corner. Optimizing this for the car/track/conditions is what makes for a great driver.

everyone

3 hours ago

The distance is irrelevant.. It is true that depending on the car you may gain time breaking and accelerating while turning.

But that is a more subtle and advanced concept though (like dealing with elevation changes).. People should understand the big circle first.

bluGill

3 hours ago

In the context of winning a race you need to get the subtle and advanced concepts right or you will be in last place. If you are just driving on the street it doesn't matter.

everyone

2 hours ago

Most times Ive seen anyone playing a racing game they seem to be totally clueless.. They dont even comprehend the big circle. They always go into corners way too fast, break super hard and then crawl out.

Its so common it surprises me racing games have always been so popular.

What I have also noticed is that over time racing games have changed their physics to be totally wacky in order to meet the general public's wacky expectations.. (eg. mario kart or GTA5) I cant play those games cus the physics are so strange.

bluGill

an hour ago

I was referring to real world races where we cannot ignore physics.

Racing games are very different. They tend to have adaptive AI - you are more likely to win with the naive approach you describe than the physically perfect route. The physically perfect result will get your through the race several minutes faster, but the AI opponents become impossible to beat. Thus the ideal path is the worst thing you can learn. (I haven't played games in years, but IIRC the games you mention don't pretend to be about racing, I wonder how ones that pretend to be a real race compare)

everyone

29 minutes ago

?? I guess you havent played modern racing games. No-one races against AI, its all against other people. Games like Assetto Corsa and iRacing have very good physics models. Real race drivers use them to train and are often seen online.

The circle thing is aimed at most people here. If your average person implemented that they would dramatically improve their times.. All the other stuff (of which of course there is a lot) would result in relatively marginal improvements.

HPsquared

2 hours ago

Life and business are often the same.

pfdietz

4 hours ago

This is a consequence of the virial theorem of mechanics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virial_theorem

This theorem also lets you conclude that as a nondegenerate star becomes more tightly bound (smaller, for a given mass) it must also become hotter.

(Why did someone downvote this?)