Modeling Others' Minds as Code

66 pointsposted 4 months ago
by PaulHoule
(arxiv.org)

46 Comments

palmotea

4 months ago

> Our key insight is that many everyday social interactions may follow predictable patterns; efficient "scripts" that minimize cognitive load for actors and observers, e.g., "wait for the green light, then go." We propose modeling these routines as behavioral programs instantiated in computer code rather than policies conditioned on beliefs and desires.

Aren't there already materials (made for people with autism) that catalog these scripts and make them explicit?

Edit: e.g. https://suelarkey.com.au/promoting-social-understanding-soci...

Fizz43

4 months ago

This is for children though. Where is the adult version?

ryandv

4 months ago

[flagged]

dragonwriter

4 months ago

Not sure how you expect to accurately modeling existing social norms and end up with something that doesn’t... do exactly that.

fellowniusmonk

4 months ago

Looks like you may have missed it, but that user is mocking what they consider to be a liberal perspective. They are attempting to lower the level of humanity and discourse on the site.

ryandv

4 months ago

[flagged]

gaul_bladder

4 months ago

[dead]

ryandv

4 months ago

It is my civic duty as a citizen of this country to uphold the values of liberalism.

punchfunk4lyte

4 months ago

For sure but I don't think you do your cause any favors by commenting that books about taking turns in conversation and understanding how to respond when a family member dies is imperialist and heteronormative without providing any context as to why you believe that. I'm sympathetic to your position but my immediate reaction was, "that's nuts." I went to look at the link and, while I saw some outdated language, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the "Social Stories" hadn't aged well either, it was apparent to me that this was a basic educational tool that some children would really benefit from. And it's difficult to understand why you would object to that.

If you wanna help people to understand your critique I think you should add context and not use such absolute language. That can really only reach the converted. If you feel it is your civic duty to represent these values, perhaps it's your duty to represent them in a way that's accessible to people who disagree but are reachable?

I understand your passion, I sympathize with your position, and this is my attempt at constructive criticism.

user____name

4 months ago

Or... In the US the word liberal was thrust upon them by the self styled "conservatives" by calling them that and also by turning the S-word into a slur. After the fall of the USSR and its satelites pretty much all progressives are social democrats, which is a subset of liberalism -- you know, because they also hate tankies, regardless of what the potus and his ilk think.

SubiculumCode

4 months ago

If you AI folks would spend more time reading actual semantic/episodic/working memory literatures, you wouldn't have to "invent" all these old ideas from scratch, over and over. Scripts are mental templates for routine situations. They are super important construct supporting memory and learning.

naasking

4 months ago

Why would AI researchers assume that AI models are like human brains? Sleep is also super important for brains, but AI models don't need it.

Unless you're asserting that AI models and brains do share some things in common?

SubiculumCode

4 months ago

'''Our key insight is that many everyday social interactions may follow predictable patterns; efficient "scripts" that minimize cognitive load for actors and observers, e.g., "wait for the green light, then go." We propose modeling these routines as behavioral programs instantiated in computer code rather than policies conditioned on beliefs and desires. ''' yet, as far as I can tell, did not cite the relevant literature.

obeseneocortex

4 months ago

well, they speak the same language for one thing

sarreph

4 months ago

I've been thinking a lot recently about how much we'd be able to model the human existence as a foundation model (or multiple models representing each core part of the brain) hooked up to a load of sensors (such as 'optic nerve feed', 'temperature', 'cortisol levels') as input and as a response to tool calls -- and have all of this stream out as structured output controlling speech, motor movement, and other physiological functions.

I don't know if anyone is working on modelling the human existence (via LMMs) in this way... It feels like a Frankensteinian and eccentric project idea, but certainly a fun one!

alganet

4 months ago

I think this has applications in virtual fences. For example, if you want to restrict someone's behavior to a certain pattern.

Also, you can think of it as the subject (or subjects) programming the modeling agent: if the modeled mind is able to recognize it's being modeled, it's reasonable to consider the possibility that it can influence how those inferred scripts are created just by shaping its own behavior.

It can't be like an EEG, right? "Please be quiet and predictable while I model you, sir".

Of course, what humans think of predictability might not hold water. One could think he's behaving in a random way but in reality following well-known patterns (unknown to him).

It's an interesting problem. Absolutely terrifying stuff.

FrustratedMonky

4 months ago

Is this basically the "Fidelity" testing in Westworld?

joaquincabezas

4 months ago

when someone behaves in a very predictable way I use to say "I could code you in C!". Well, turns out is Python!

shagie

4 months ago

Long ago... Think Geek T-shirt: "Go away or I will replace you with a very small shell script"

https://web.archive.org/web/20081204045017/http://www.thinkg...

palmotea

4 months ago

> Long ago... Think Geek T-shirt: "Go away or I will replace you with a very small shell script"

Whoever bought that shirt could probably use some social skills coaching. It's not a good idea to wear a shirt that indiscriminately broadcasts contempt in all directions. I get the purchasers probably confused it for humor, but there's an important difference between humor that works on a viewer TV show and and humor embedded in the interaction of you with another real person.

I had this though recently at Walmart, after seeing the third such shirt (a visual pun meaning "fuck you"). Geeks often have the same attitude problems.

saagarjha

4 months ago

Ideally you pair the shirt with a personality that never leaves any doubt that it is a joke.

palmotea

4 months ago

> Ideally you pair the shirt with a personality that never leaves any doubt that it is a joke.

Ideally, but that still doesn't really solve the problem. It's not really practical to counter an indiscriminate broadcast of contempt with point to point interactions. People who don't know you or don't know you well will always see your shirt, if you wear it out.

You want to do the opposite: indiscriminately broadcast a kind personality, then deploy the sarcasm in point to point contexts "that never [leave] any doubt that it is a joke".

saagarjha

4 months ago

I think this is pretty unreasonable, though. Are you against the husband/wife “I’m with stupid/I’m stupid” shirts? Generally it’s pretty obvious this is meant as a joke and not that one spouse genuinely degrades the other in public.

AppleBananaPie

4 months ago

I see way too many couples that are passive aggressive with each other that I would wonder.

This made me realize just now the functional* couples I know would never wear somethings so blunt.

This is all purely anecdotal but just sharing my personal observations :)

*I need a better word that just describes the objective truth with no baggage please help lol

mindslight

4 months ago

Geeks were just awkwardly ahead of the curve, as usual. The shirt you saw was being marketed to a wider audience, right? Also the prescience of "Fuck you, I'm eating"

qsort

4 months ago

There's the old joke that many people who fear they could be replaced by AI are in fact too self-aggrandizing, they could be replaced by a 12-line python script.

If you want to get a bit meaner, you could profitably replace some people with the empty python script.

emp17344

4 months ago

Weirdly misanthropic. Jobs exist for a reason - people who could be replaced by a python script already have been.

constantcrying

4 months ago

If you work in any large organization you know that there are people who exists so that other people can not do their jobs.

keybored

4 months ago

- I could program a person in C

- They could be replaced by a 12-line Python script

Predictably HN-misanthropic is more like it.

more_corn

4 months ago

I’ve encountered many jobs that could be replaced with a script. When I was young and dumb I proposed replacing a whole department with a simple web app. The app was already finished and showed better success rates than the team of 6. The proposal was rejected.

saagarjha

4 months ago

You’re assuming that companies are efficient at discovering which jobs these are.

emp17344

4 months ago

You’re making an assumption that you can effectively judge who contributes value to the business and who does not.

more_corn

4 months ago

Correct. For everyone’s sake I would hope this is possible.

atoav

4 months ago

That is how it should be yeah.

In reality you will find pockets of utter incompetence in nearly every organization of considerable size. And I don't mean people who sometimes have bad days (who hasn't?) or struggle with particularly hard tasks (who doesn't?).

I mean long-time employee who lack the ability to wield the core tools and lack the core skills needed in their job. Imagine a blacksmith that doesn't know how to use a hammer and while they can talk very entertainingly and deeply about metals they certainly seem to fail at doing anything with it.

Now you may think I am exaggerating. I am not. Anyone in this thread who has worked in first level IT support will be probably agree. Now I am an educator, with a strong believe that nobody (aside those affected by certain medical conditions) is outside of learning and becoming better. I am known for my extreme patience and have won my provinces teaching price. Take this into account when I continue describing here.

We are talking about secretaries whose main tool (as a fraction of their workday) is the email client and calendar functionality, yet they fail to grasp the fundamental "IT for seniors" concepts of even the most basic version of the software they interact with more than 6 hours a day. In fact it is worse, they know they are bad and still file repeated advice into the mental equivalent of a paper shredder. I know of a person who has been doing this for 10 years now. Don't get me wrong, they somehow manage to not have it falling apart, but it is even exhausting to look at it from afar.

What would you think of a truck driver that after years on the job repeatedly asked you how to start the ignition?

qsort

4 months ago

I'm joking, that wasn't meant to be serious commentary. I don't actually agree with the idea that most jobs are bullshit.

deadbabe

4 months ago

Some people could be replaced with nothing at all.

palmotea

4 months ago

> Some people could be replaced with nothing at all.

The kicker is it's often not the guy you think it is.

bgwalter

4 months ago

I remember the joke differently. I heard it first way before the "AI" craze from an Italian philosopher (the original program must have been recorded in the 1980s and then rebroadcast):

"People who think they can be replaced by AI will be replaced."

In other words, the cheerleaders are so dumb that they probably could be replaced.

PaulHoule

4 months ago

The classic book Remember me to God

https://www.amazon.com/Remember-Me-to-God/dp/B000LQ2SHG

talks about how people in low social positions (say a Bank Teller) have no opportunities to distinguish themself but have opportunities to make mistakes that they'll be held accountable for. Whereas if you are in a high social position you get to grade your own paper, get credit for your successes, and "fail up" when you screw up.

Given that neural networks get it wrong some of the kind they might be better to fill the high status positions (make up crazy stuff to say for Satya Nadella and Eric Schmidt for instance)

atoav

4 months ago

If someone pissed off our sysadmin he would say something among the lines of: "Quiet, you are aware I could replace you with a simple script?"

truelson

4 months ago

Most automatic human behavior uses very simple logic. I spend a lot of time "not present" as my conscious part is often lost in something complicated. My automatic, unconscious actions are, well, pretty simple and subject to failure when I'm not "present."

I really really want this other part of my unconscious behavior modeled well. Would be very useful.

more_corn

4 months ago

One good way to model your unconscious behavior is to examine the ways adversaries exploit your unconscious behavior.

By examining the common attacks on distracted people you can build a simple rule set that accounts for a large part of unconscious behavior. The attack I love to hate is the “subscribe now” popup. It inserts into your OODA loop at exactly the moment when your mind is engaged with important or interesting concepts. It is designed to compromise your decision making. I would use that as the foundation of my model because it sets out not only the behavior but the conditions under which the behavior is active.

Another set of rules can be inferred from ways phishing tricks people. (Activating urgency, fear, irritation, authority, avarice)

A third source of rules might be inferred from the practices of illusionists and cup and ball scams. Attention is finite, I’ve got it here so it’s not available in the important direction.