steveBK123
4 months ago
Used to work next to this tower, was always oddly empty. The only movement you ever saw were maids cleaning the occupied units. Many units were unoccupied concrete shells, 7 years after sales began and 5 years after construction completion.
It also raises the issue of new dev condos in NY in general - there are always problems and stakeholders are often busier trying to allocate blame than fix them.
The $100M repair bill sounds staggering, but put against a $2.5B sell through price for 125 units.. we are talking 4%.
The facade photos are scary for such a young building, this thing is not going to age well, clearly will be a public safety issue soon. This is what the city's otherwise overzealous facade inspection schedule is made for.
bell-cot
4 months ago
> In all, the problems at 432 Park could cost over $100 million to remedy, according to engineering reports that the condo board commissioned and the independent engineers who reviewed the tower’s condition.
TBD how much "over" might be. Further down, there's a $160M estimate.
Then there's the issue of whether all those repairs would work correctly, to actually fix everything. Vs. needing a $tbdM second round of repairs. Or more.
steveBK123
4 months ago
Worth noting that dubious concrete is not the only way in which this developer pushed the envelope. The height itself was only possible by using a loophole that was quickly closed.
To summarize - a quarter of the floors of the building are uninhabited mechanical floors, which exist purely to push up the total height of the building. This allowed pushing inhabited floors higher more desirable views and pricing.
The loophole was more or less that only inhabited floors counted against the building square footage / height zoning. No one contemplated that a developer would be willing to waste 25% of floors to juice the height, but given the 0.1% market he was selling into.. it worked.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/nyregion/tallest-building...
milesvp
4 months ago
Any building taller than 15 stories is likely already sacrificing square footage for height. As I understand it the square footage maximizing height with modern building techniques and materials is somewhere around 15 floors. As you go taller you need to start sacrificing internal volume for more reinforcing material and, surprisingly (to me when I learned this) elevators. The taller you go the more elevators you need to quickly move people around.
I’m curious if this just isn’t already well known in the zoning world? We build tall buildings because the higher floors are more valuable which make up for the smaller amount of total real estate. Logical extension of this is to sacrifice whole floors for height if that is what zoning required. I’m also curious how long it took someone to figure out this loophole (since it’s easy to say it’s obvious after the fact).
margalabargala
4 months ago
It's not "sacrificing" square footage for height, it's just encountering diminishing returns. To say it's sacrificing for height, means square footage decreases with increased height.
What actually happens is square footage per floor decreases with increased height. But a 20 or 80 story building still has strictly much more square footage than a 15 story one, perhaps excepting the absolute narrowest buildings.
QuantumGood
4 months ago
Profit per floor can decrease as well, due to increased costs of the structure.
margalabargala
4 months ago
Sure, but total profit still goes up.
And due to the premium you can charge for the upper floors, there's eventually an inflection point where profit per floor starts increasing again.
harshreality
4 months ago
As far as I can tell, rentable square feet (total) per building footprint sqft goes up with height, just sub-linearly. Until adding more height is technically infeasible or decreases total projected profits (whether that's due to decreased profits/sqft, or not enough demand to fill a taller building, or both), developers in land-constrained areas like city centers will build taller buildings.
(Land-constrained, as in, when buying two equivalent lots and building half-height buildings becomes less profitable than building a skyscraper or supertall, due to massive demand for high-floor views, combined with sky-high nearby lot prices.)
Point of trivia: apparently there are terms for each 100m of height: Lowrise -> Highrise -> Skyrise (Skyscrapers) -> Supertalls.
conartist6
4 months ago
Who here played Sim Tower
Projectiboga
4 months ago
I head from an architect that in most of Manhattan that the level where structural difficulty gets harder is just above 20, maybe 22 stories. That slightly higher level may be due to lots of Mahattan having solid bedrock close to base upon.
user
4 months ago
nabla9
4 months ago
As many of the owners are billionaires or close to it, it's no surprise that it's mostly empty. Most of them don't live in NYC; they just don't want to live in a five star hotel while visiting.
Chinese, Russian, and Gulf billionaires buy them to serve as emergency assets. Losing some value doesn't matter to them as long as they have a few hundred million dollars stashed away in NYC, London, Geneva as physical property.
raybb
4 months ago
It’s also an example of the "spatial fix," where global capital parks itself in real estate as a safe asset rather than in the local economy. Basically turning urban housing into a storage vehicle for surplus wealth instead of a place for people to live.
https://sk.sagepub.com/ency/edvol/geography/chpt/spatial-fix...
pbronez
4 months ago
Yup. We should tax this out of existence.
b112
4 months ago
In Vancouver they charge more property tax if the building is empty.
https://vancouver.ca/home-property-development/empty-homes-t...
Not sure if it's enough, but it's something.
I like this part:
False declarations
False property status declarations may result in fines of up to $10,000 per day of the continuing offense, in addition to payment of the tax.
ryandrake
4 months ago
This needs to happen everywhere, and it should be exponential. Each year a property is vacant for 6 or more months should double the tax.
user
4 months ago
inemesitaffia
4 months ago
Can't you park staff there?
Is there a requirement for owner occupancy?
Yeul
4 months ago
We already have this in the Netherlands. In order to deter squatters you can hire a student to live in your property. You can kick them out on short notice.
b112
4 months ago
Different laws here though. You guys can lose a place to squatting in the Netherlands, we can't here (Canada/Vancouver).
crossroadsguy
4 months ago
And you should not. Hyping real estate prices or just putting massive real estate to disuse and often pricing the locals out is a big problem but so is losing a property to squatting. Such things don’t always involve millionaires and billionaires.
namibj
4 months ago
That would free the apartments the staff would otherwise live in, though?
materielle
4 months ago
Devils advocate: is it really such a problem? Perhaps it should be banned simply on moralistic grounds.
But I fail to see how a hundred or so buildings sold to millionaires and billionaires numbering in the thousands has any affect at all in a city with 20 million people.
Again, surely it’s not the best nor most democratic thing that these buildings exist at all.
But I don’t see how it can impact the bread and butter real estate and rental market. Surely this is caused by the city’s numerous bad housing policies like rent control, zoning, public transportation, education.
thfuran
4 months ago
NYC metro area has fewer than 400 skyscrapers, so a hundred is quite a lot.
credit_guy
4 months ago
I disagree. We should encourage this. It's the best form of export: you sell a good, but the good stays in place. It also collects taxes, taxes that are used for the benefit of the local population, without those who pays those taxes consuming a lot of local government services. On the rare occasions that these billionaires visit their luxury residence, they inject plenty of cash in the local economy. Why would you want to eliminate this?
geysersam
4 months ago
Paying an entity for building a useless empty building, so that they can build another useless empty building... All as a kind of wealth insurance scheme for a rich person who has reason to think their assets might not be safe in their home country (because they were obtained in corrupt or illegal ways?).
> Why would you want to eliminate this?
Because I believe we can do better than living off the scraps of the obscenely wealthy.
skavi
4 months ago
Why does it matter that the good stays in place?
Regardless, given the scarcity of housing space in NYC, I’d expect that if more of it is used as a store of wealth, housing prices will generally increase.
Are you suggesting that, in practice, the currently levied taxes prevent this?
credit_guy
4 months ago
There is no scarcity of housing space in NYC. NYC is a very large city. About 80% of it is low rises. If you want to increase the housing supply, you an do just that: you approve more building permits. 10 or 20 or even 50 sky scrappers will not change the availability of land in NYC.
steveBK123
4 months ago
Yes, and the current zoning / city council / NIMBYism death triangle means most development is poorly located.
In expensive parts of Northwest Brooklyn & Queens, the waterfront which is a 15 minute walk to the subway was zoned to put up a ton of 40+ story residential towers. It's far enough away that many of them run private shuttle busses to the subway.
Meanwhile the subway station (Bedford Ave particularly) that you walk to from said waterfront is surrounded by 3-4 story buildings.. as is most of the walk there.
The difference is there were already people in those 3-4 story buildings to show up to city council meetings & whine about any zoning changes, unlike the previously industrial water front.
user
4 months ago
msh
4 months ago
Just require that the owner live in the property (and is then taxed as a local)
2OEH8eoCRo0
4 months ago
I could picture an alternate reality where the cost of pedestrian injury is factored into the cost of doing business. People gathering below hoping to be hit by falling billionaire debris in hope of a payday.
ramses0
4 months ago
blactuary
4 months ago
A 2 year old was killed by a piece falling from a building a few years ago. Her father wrote a heartbreaking book about it https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/once-more-we-saw-stars-jays...
ks2048
4 months ago
Reminds me of São Paulo's famous Copan building. It's tiles were falling off, so they covered it in a big net and haven't been able to fix it for 10+ years.
steveBK123
4 months ago
An interesting thought experiment, but given the height of the building… it will be the victims families collecting any payday.
user
4 months ago
cyanydeez
4 months ago
Externalities are the bane of capitalism. We wouldnt have capitalism if it had to be accountable.
m0llusk
4 months ago
That is sloppy thinking. If you have private property and the ability to profit from labor then you have Capitalism. The need to regulate architectural liabilities goes back as far as history. The current thinking that any regulation impedes Capitalism is both radical and new.
user
4 months ago
cyanydeez
4 months ago
Ok, bit you wpuld not have profit if you had to pay for labors heapthcare
Sloppy is not knowing what externalities are.
edoceo
4 months ago
One can still have profit and pay for healthcare. Dozens of examples exist.
cyanydeez
4 months ago
Then explain why the largest capitalist government can't do that.
StackRanker3000
4 months ago
It could, it just doesn’t want to. Or at least the inertia and obstacles of gaining enough political support for doing it, paired with the reluctance of the powerful entities that gain from the existing system, prevents it from happening. But there is nothing that makes it fundamentally incompatible with still allowing private enterprise and profit
cyanydeez
4 months ago
Fundamentally, not paying for externalities is why it "succeeds". It's foundational. As I stated at the top.
Jensson
4 months ago
Capitalism succeeds even where they do pay for externalities, so you are wrong.
cyanydeez
4 months ago
really, is that why all these brownfields were abandoned? We got billion dollar contamination everywhere that no one wants and random people suffer.
It's simply a failed accounting system you have.
rapnie
4 months ago
> against a $2.5B sell through price
Given the state of capitalism I wouldn't put it above and beyond ruthless property developers to consider the initial building costs as cheap investments to reserve space on the property map, and help keep condo prices high. And cut corners during the construction to increase ROI.
potato3732842
4 months ago
Given the state of regulation I wouldn't put it beyond anyone with a brain to build now and just accept that the building is a cheap investment to get their floor plan and unit count grandfathered in and while they might have to deal with low vacancy and high ongoing/refit costs it'll pencil out in 5-15yr when every new development is saddled with costs they didn't pay and they'll be able to under-cut the market.
(This is the whole reason "old mill into apartments" conversions exist, obviously not in NYC though. You literally couldn't build those footprint buildings on those lots today without non-starter size investments in compliance stuff).
reactordev
4 months ago
Probably a shell front for laundering money. Like the I-4 eye sore in Central Florida. Or Trump Towers. Or crypto.
billy99k
4 months ago
Or million dollar art sold from a politician's son.
digdugdirk
4 months ago
I do hope you've tuned your hypocrisy radar to appropriately detect the impact and scope of the issue, rather than blindly following partisan talking points.
_DeadFred_
4 months ago
I mean Trump just got caught on mic discussing business for his son. His sons literally made a billion dollars from a crypto pump and dump that's only value was it's ties to the current regime. This person doesn't care about corruption, they care about using it to promote their narrative:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-overheard-hot-mic-apparently...
reactordev
4 months ago
Corruption is the family business.
mindslight
4 months ago
I'm really hoping that the pendulum swings back hard enough for these criminals to become personas-non-grata in the United States, and maybe even most of the Western World. Eventually real Americans will have had enough with the pOlItiCaL pRoSeCuTiOn and lAwFaRe fairytale narratives pumped out by their LLM bots, and hopefully we can just get over it and move to strip every generation of these fuckers of their stolen wealth. They can abscond to China or Russia and find out how much Xi or Putin actually values their service.
(I'm of course always expecting to be disappointed though)