jbstack
4 months ago
I'm a legal professional who uses AI to help with my work.
I couldn't ever imagine making a court submission with hallucinated legal references. It seems incredibly obvious to me that you have to check what the AI says. If the AI gives me a case citation, I go into Westlaw and I look up and read the case. Only then do I include it in my submission if it supports my argument.
The majority of the time, AI saves me a lot of work by leading me straight to the legislation or case law that I need. Sometimes it completely makes things up. The only way to know the difference is to check everything.
I'm genuinely amazed that there are lawyers who don't realise this. Even pre-AI it was always drilled into us at law school that you never rely on Google results (e.g. blogs, law firm websites, etc.) as any kind of authoritative source. Even government-published legal guidance is suspect (I have often found it to be subtly wrong when compared to the source material). You can use these things as a starting point to help guide the overall direction of your research, but your final work has to be based on reading the legislation and case law yourself. Anything short of that is a recipe for a professional negligence claim from your client.
arcbyte
4 months ago
> I'm genuinely amazed that there are lawyers who don't realise this.
Just remember who the bottom half of your law school classmates were. Sometimes we forget those people.
collingreen
4 months ago
Don't forget the top half, either. In my experience, the people willing to sit down and fully do the work every time like GP are pretty rare compared to the lazy but lucky/charming/connected top and the lazy but unlucky/outsider bottom.
Keep being a real one, GP. It's so hard to not become jaded.
user
4 months ago
potato3732842
4 months ago
>Even government-published legal guidance is suspect (I have often found it to be subtly wrong when compared to the source material)
This is more often a feature than a bug in my experience.
jbstack
4 months ago
I tend to think it's neither, but rather an inevitable result of the lossy process of condensing legal text (which has been carefully written to include all the nuance the drafter wanted) to something shorter and simpler.
potato3732842
4 months ago
I've seen way, way, way too much cases where the key clauses or details that someone who does not deal in the subject on behalf of others for money will need to know because it tells them of some "less crappy" path that they can go through to do a regulated thing, or know exactly what they need to know to dial back their thing so they don't have to put up with all the BS that getting .gov permission entails are conveniently omitted from the text they present to the general public.
Like if you follow their instructions in good faith you'll wind up going through 80% of the permitting you'd need to open a restaurant just to have some boy scouts sell baked goods at your strip mall. In the best possible case the secretary is over-worked and doesn't wanna do the bullshit and whispers to you "why don't you just <tweak some unimportant particulars> and then you wouldn't even need a permit". Ditto for just about every other thing that the government regulates on the high end but the casual or incidental user is less subject to.
IDK if it's ass covering or malice because the distinction doesn't matter. It's hostile to the public these agencies are supposed to serve.
risyachka
4 months ago
>> I'm genuinely amazed that there are lawyers who don't realise this
Its not lawyers, its everyone.
literalAardvark
4 months ago
Yeah but you don't really expect everyone to hold their work to a very high standard.
You do expect it from most professionals.
edgineer
4 months ago
As an aside, "bar exam" and "passing the bar" comes from the bar/railing physically or symbolically separating the public from the legal practitioners in a courtroom.
"Set a high bar" comes from pole vaulting.
Isamu
4 months ago
Since I found this interesting I had to look this up in wikipedia:
>The call to the bar[1] is a legal term of art in most common law jurisdictions where persons must be qualified to be allowed to argue in court on behalf of another party and are then said to have been "called to the bar" or to have received "call to the bar". "The bar" is now used as a collective noun for barristers, but literally referred to the wooden barrier in old courtrooms, which separated the often crowded public area at the rear from the space near the judges reserved for those having business with the court. Barristers would sit or stand immediately behind it, facing the judge, and could use it as a table for their briefs.
RobotToaster
4 months ago
> You do expect it from most professionals
If you've never met a "professional" perhaps.
Muromec
4 months ago
That is a very sekf contradictory statement, isn't it
wartywhoa23
4 months ago
[flagged]
yen223
4 months ago
Without AI you'd still need to check everything, no? It's just you reach that stage faster with LLMs doing a lot of the heavy lifting
wartywhoa23
4 months ago
> Without AI you'd still need to check everything, no?
Yes, but without helping the billionaires turn into trillionaires and my own brain into a useless appendage.
AnimalMuppet
4 months ago
So, it's useful and helpful to people doing the actual work, but you still want to complain.
literalAardvark
4 months ago
Collating data from hundreds of sources isn't really what's keeping your brain working
voidUpdate
4 months ago
Yet using an LLM seems to make it work less https://arxiv.org/pdf/2506.08872v1
literalAardvark
4 months ago
So does using search, should we go back to borrowing print and handwritten notes?
If you apply the spared capacity to a different task you're still getting your brain workout.
But yeah you'll have trouble quoting from sources you didn't read. Ohh no.
poszlem
4 months ago
P != NP.
Some things are hard to do/research but easy to check.
almostgotcaught
4 months ago
Lol do you understand what you're even saying?
First of all literally the definition of NP is that there's a verifier in P (that doesn't make it a proof of P!=NP).
Second of all, "research that is easy to check" is called confirmation bias. What you're saying is that AI helps you confirm your biases (which is correct but not what I think you intended).
jbstack
4 months ago
Confirmation bias doesn't really apply to the same extent with law as with other fields.
If the AI says "Fisher v Bell [1961] 1 QB 394 is authority for the principle that an item for display in a shop is an invitation to treat", it's either right or wrong. A lawyer can confirm that it's right by looking up the case in Westlaw (or equivalent database), check that it's still good law (not overridden by a higher court), and then read the case to make sure it's really about invitations to treat.
If the AI says "Smith v Green [2021] EWCA Civ 742 is authority for the principle that consideration is no longer required for a contract in England" it will take you under 1 minute to learn that that case doesn't exist.
Law isn't like, say, diet where there's a whole bunch of contradictory and uncertain information out there (e.g. eggs are good for you vs. eggs are bad for you) and the answer for you is going to be largely opinion based depending on which studies you read/prefer and your biases and personality. It's usually going to be pretty black and white whether the AI was hallucinating. There are rarely going to be a bunch of different contradictory rulings and, in most of the cases where there are, there will be a clear hierarchy where the "wrong" ones have been overridden by the correct ones.
DroneBetter
4 months ago
their use of P!=NP is not incongruent with its meaning; I understood it as saying the tasks that LLMs are good for are analogous to NP in the verification being significantly faster than the search. and at least in the things I use LLMs for (arithmetic with special functions and combinatorial arrays, which is often of the form "find a pathway of manipulations bringing the left side to the right" with a well-defined goal) verification is indeed able to be certain, often via computer algebra systems (that weren't themselves able to find the path, but can verify each step); even if the suitability of historical casework for a lawyer is not absolute and can't be definitively decided complete (since one person can't read everything), they can at least check that it adheres to the law
moi2388
4 months ago
> P != NP
Source?
thechao
4 months ago
I asked my 13 year old and she proposed N=4 and (after some prompting) P!=0. I always threatened to rename her "Howitzer Higginbitham IV". You can use her as a source.