sandy_coyote
11 hours ago
I talk about this topic with my (childless) wife quite a bit. Reasons we postulate:
The rent is too damn high
It takes longer into adulthood to achieve stability
Porn brain
Phone brain (24/7 infinite entertainment)
Dating apps are not delightful
The pandemic led some people to stay in for good
Loss of third places (rent too damn high again)
Tight job markets lead to reluctance to bring kids into the picture
Healthcare is more expensive every year
American individualism diminishes multi generational family support structures after a generation
A long tail of other causes: drugs, gun violence, obesity, losing one's religion, growing up with divorced parents
m463
8 hours ago
that's a pretty comprehensive list... and pretty thought provoking.
maybe just understanding the list might help to conquer it, at least on a personal level.
There's something I've been thinking about. Might be too general for your list: lack of connections.
xyzelement
10 hours ago
I used to kinda buy these things until I started getting to know religious people in the last few years. An average secular couple living in Brooklyn has all the problems you're describing, and then their religious Jewish neighbor lives in the same world but has 6.6 kids on average.
The thing that I think is different - even when I was an atheist, I had the value of "children" very strongly - that they are my way to bring life and perpetuate my ideas and contribute to the world. This was always strong with me, and I see similar concepts strong with my religious friends. Meanwhile my secular friends are much weaker on their motivation "oh... yeah maybe I'll be OK with kids if it happens" - because the value is not there, they aren't motivated to deal with the things you're listing - even though these things are NOTHING compared to what people dealt with in history and still had kids.
kashunstva
9 hours ago
> even though these things are NOTHING compared to what people dealt with in history and still had kids
Until recent human history, though, humans had far less control over childbearing than now. And children in the past were relied on to provide supplemental labour to maintain the household which was, much more often than now, a farm. So at times there were very practical reasons for childbearing.
But agree, deeply held values enable some to overcome obstacles.
xyzelement
9 hours ago
I realize these arguments are very common but I think they are more than likely bullshit. Again, I think religious people today are a good proxy for how people were "back then" especially since faith was almost universal.
For example, religious people don't use birth control and have more kids - but it's because that's what they want. To believe that someone has the discipline to adhere to the tenets of religion (eg respecting the sabbath, dietary laws) but keeps having unwanted kids due to uncontrolled lust for his wife, seems bullshit on its face.
The "farm help" thing... I think most people then and now see kids primarily as another mouth to feed in perpetuity, and not some sort of revenue generating asset. Certainly people who have a lot of kids today, aren't doing it for financial reasons.
And when I think back on my grandmother who was one of 5 or my wife's grandparents who were one of 10, it wasn't because their parents were harnessing them to a plow.
People today have kids because they love them, and because they want to cast a vote of influence into the future. I think people in the past primarily had similar motivations. The "farm help/birth control thing" is cope for the childless primarily, no parent actually thinks this way.
andrewmcwatters
9 hours ago
Yeah, every time I read people saying stuff like the OP, I’m like, “Yeah, sure if you’re an atheist.” The religious world is chugging along just fine.
All of my religious friends have two, three kids, perfectly fine or above average incomes.
It’s just not a priority for non-religious people, and there was never a loss of third spaces. Church hopping to date is a thing. People share values. Congregations celebrate new babies and chip in. Community exists.
It’s a comparatively bad experience for those without that support. The secular world has none of this except maybe immediate family, and even then I don’t see support from non-religious parents to their non-religious children. So of course these people think these things. They’re basically thrown into the world with no social net.
xyzelement
8 hours ago
Really sad - it's a sort of tangible vision of what it means to have forsaken Gd and be forsaken by him.
andrewmcwatters
8 hours ago
Yeah, I think that’s a fair argument. It’s easily been the most clear indicator of social connective health I’ve seen over the course of my life regardless of faith background.
whatajoke69420
8 hours ago
Nah, I think that's a really inane argument. Religious fervor (loosely defined as "Religion is a good thing") is the most clear indicator I've seen of social decay over the course of my life, regardless of which particular faith it is.
whatajoke69420
8 hours ago
Every time I read people saying stuff like your comment, I'm like, "yeah, sure, survivorship bias and confirmation seeking still exists"
I mean this, if your value system mirrors that of a cult (sky deity who commands you to procreate and all) than it would make sense that your only mating options are within that "community". Of COURSE these people think these things. They're basically sequestered from the rest of the world.
xyzelement
an hour ago
How many kids do you have? It's hilarious that atheists are so smart and "it's just Darwinism" and then they literally die on that hill. Maybe there's something to this "sky deity" thing if the only people in the next generations are kids of those who believe.