impossiblefork
8 hours ago
Very strange writing from semafor.com
>For instance, an agency could pay for a subscription or negotiate a pay-per-use contract with an AI provider, only to find out that it is prohibited from using the AI model in certain ways, limiting its value.
This is of course quite false. They of course know the restriction when they sign the contract.
bri3d
7 hours ago
This whole article is weird to me.
This reads to me like:
* Some employee somewhere wanted to click the shiny Claude button in the AWS FedRamp marketplace
* Whatever USG legal team were involved said "that domestic surveillance clause doesn't work for us" and tried to redline it.
* Anthropic rejected the redline.
* Someone got mad and went to Semafor.
It's unclear that this has even really escalated prior to the article, or that Anthropic are really "taking a stand" in a major way (after all, their model is already on the Fed marketplace) - it just reads like a typical fed contract negotiation with a squeaky wheel in it somewhere.
The article is also full of other weird nonsense like:
> Traditional software isn’t like that. Once a government agency has access to Microsoft Office, it doesn’t have to worry about whether it is using Excel to keep track of weapons or pencils.
While it might not be possible to enforce them as easily, many, many shrink-wrap EULAs restrict the way in which software can be used. Almost always there is an EULA carve-out with different tier for lifesaving or safety uses (due to liability / compliance concerns) and for military uses (sometimes for ethics reasons but usually due to a desire to extract more money from those customers).
axus
7 hours ago
A classic:
THIS SOFTWARE PRODUCT MAY CONTAIN SUPPORT FOR PROGRAMS WRITTEN IN JAVA. JAVA TECHNOLOGY IS NOT FAULT TOLERANT AND IS NOT DESIGNED, MANUFACTURED, OR INTENDED FOR USE OR RESALE AS ONLINE CONTROL EQUIPMENT IN HAZARDOUS ENVIRONMENTS REQUIRING FAILSAFE PERFORMANCE, SUCH AS IN THE OPERATION OF NUCLEAR FACILITIES, AIRCRAFT NAVIGATION OR COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL, DIRECT LIFE SUPPORT MACHINES, OR WEAPONS SYSTEMS, IN WHICH THE FAILURE OF JAVA TECHNOLOGY COULD LEAD DIRECTLY TO DEATH, PERSONAL INJURY OR SEVERE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE.
GLdRH
6 hours ago
I never knew Java was so dangerous
gowld
6 hours ago
Everything is dangerous by default. That's the point.
m463
3 hours ago
reminds me of jslint
author added "must be used for good, not evil" to the license
...and IBM asked for an exception.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSLint#License
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5138866
note that restricting use of software makes it non-free gpl-wise.
RMS said the GPL does not restrict rights of the USER of software, just that when the software is redistributed, the rights are passed along.
kentonv
an hour ago
Good old Douglas Crockford. He also put the "must be used for good, not evil" restriction on JSON, which he invented. Obviously JSON is used for all kinds of evil, though.
A much younger, more naive me (~20 years ago) actually emailed him to complain about the ambiguous terms and he replied saying something to the effect of "It's obviously unenforceable, get over it."
dgfitz
6 hours ago
Look up DoD (DoW?) 882 and LOR ratings. This is a fancy way of saying “Java can’t do that because we haven’t certified a toolchain for it”
And for bonus points, go find the last certified compilers for LOR1 rating that follow 882 guidelines.
Now you’ve scratched the surface of safety-critical software. Actually writing it is a blast. I think most web developers would weep in frustration. “Wait, I can’t allocate memory that way? Or that way? Or in this way not at all?! There’s no framework?! You mean I need to do all this to verify a button click??!!”
salynchnew
7 hours ago
Could also be an article placed by a competitor + a squeaky wheel.
giancarlostoro
7 hours ago
> due to a desire to extract more money from those customers
If it gives you high priority support, I dont care, if its the same tier of support, then that's just obnoxiously greedy.
matula
8 hours ago
There are (or at least WERE) entire divisions dedicated to reading every letter of the contract and terms of service, and usually creating 20 page documents seeking clarification for a specific phrase. They absolutely know what they're getting into.
darknavi
8 hours ago
I have a feeling in today's administration which largely "leads by tweet" that many traditional "inefficient" steps have been removed from government processing, probably including software on-boarding.
dannyisaphantom
7 hours ago
Can confirm these teams are still around. There is now an additional "SME review group" that must comb through any and all AI-related issues that were flagged, sends it back down for edits and must give final approval for before docs are sent over to provider for response. Turnaround has gotten much slower (relatively)
gowld
6 hours ago
Or you can use personal accounts to bypass red tape for government business.
anjel
6 hours ago
I have a legal education but reading TOS and priv policy docs at account creation is purposefully too time consuming by design.
One my fave new AI prompts: you are my Atty and a expert in privacy law and online contracts-of-adhesion. Review the TOS aggreement at [url] and privacy policies at [url] and brief me on all areas that should be of concern to me.
Takes 90 seconds from start to finish, and reveals how contemptuously illusory these agreements are when SO MANY reserve the right to change anything with no duty to disclose changes.
bt1a
8 hours ago
Perhaps it's the finetune of Opus/Sonnet/whatever that is being served to the feds that is the source of the refusal :)
andsoitis
7 hours ago
Don’t tech companies change ToS quite frequently and sometimes in ways that’s against the spirit of what the terms were when you started using it?
ajross
7 hours ago
This is a contract, not a click through license. You can't do that.
(Legally you can't do it with a click-through either, but the lack of a contract means that the recourse for the user is just to stop buying the service.)
jdminhbg
8 hours ago
Are you sure that every restriction that’s in the model is also spelled out in the contract? If they add new ones, do they update the contract?
mikeyouse
7 hours ago
The contracts will usually say “You agree to the restrictions in our TOS” with a link to that page which allows for them to update the TOS without new signatures.
PeterisP
7 hours ago
All the US megacorps tend send me emails saying "We want to change TOS, here's the new TOS that's be valid from date X, and be informed that you have the right to refuse it" (in which case they'll probably terminate the service, but I'm quite sure that if it's a paid service with some subscription, they would have to refund the remaining portion) - so they can change the TOS, but not without at least some form of agreement, even if it's an implicit one 'by continuing to use the service'.
giancarlostoro
7 hours ago
Usually, contracts will note that you will be notified of changes ahead of time, if it's a good faith contract and company that is.
impossiblefork
7 hours ago
Here in Sweden contracts are a specific thing, otherwise it's not a contract, so agreeing to conditions that can be changed by the other party simply isn't a contract and therefore is just a bullshit paper of very dubious legal validity.
I know that some things like this are accepted in America, and I can't judge how it would be dealt with. I assume that contracts between companies and other sophisticated entities are actual contracts with unchangeable terms.
mindcrime
7 hours ago
I know that some things like this are accepted in America
Not really. Everything you said about contracts above applies to contracts in America last time I checked. Disclaimer: IANAL, my legal training amounts of 1 semester of "Business Law" in college.
impossiblefork
6 hours ago
In theory yes, but you also have this stuff where people agree to get medical treatment and the price isn't specified.
This would be a non-contract in Swedish law, for example.
mindcrime
3 hours ago
One thing about the US, is how we handle settings where one could conceptualize a contract as being needed, but where it would be way too inefficient and impractical to negotiate, write out, understand, and sign, a written contract. In those cases, which includes things like retail sales, restaurants, and may other cases, the UCC or Uniform Commercial Code[1][2] applies. Not sure offhand if that relates to the medical example or not, but I expect that at least some similar notion applies. So there are binding laws that cover these transactions, it's just not done the same way as a "full fledged contract".
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Commercial_Code
[2]: The UCC also covers other things, but these cases are a lot of what it's best known for.
adastra22
4 hours ago
It is also illegal in USA, although that only changed recently.
mikeyouse
5 hours ago
Yeah, I’ve signed dozens of contracts for services and some are explicit in the way you expect but a lot of software or SAAS type contracts have flexible terms that refer to TOS and privacy policies that are updated regularly. It’s uncommon that any of those things are changed in a way that either party is upset with so companies are generally okay signing up and assuming good faith.
gowld
6 hours ago
The contact's restriction is on the usage of the model, not the behavior of the model.