Sorry. I assumed too much. Obviously most people won't know what a DTC is.

The value in a DTC is that you can pull the stored code to see, for example, oil pressure warnings that were issued last week.

If the car you are looking at reveals the DTC but appears to be full of oil anyway, it likely was only properly filled recently, so you can assume engine damage to only show itself after you drive off 8n the car.

Another thing that makes no sense to me: I couldn't get my bank to finance the purchase of an older vehicle at any rate.

Last year, my air conditioner condenser went out and had to be replaced for a total of of $4.5k. I could have paid that out of pocket, but didn't want to deplete my emergency fund and always check my options. The same bank was happy to give me a "personal loan" for $5k at 9% APR. I asked if I putting up collateral could lower that rate - they offered 6% if I'd use a vehicle title to secure the loan.

So, I can get a loan for $10k on a 2020 vehicle at 9%, or I could get a loan for $5k at 6%... but only if I already had the vehicle's title in my name at the time.

It makes no sense to me at all, but that's how it's structured. It's far easier to get credit when you "want" it than when you "need" it.

> Additionally, a lot of people who would otherwise be in the used car market for price reasons in the US cannot afford to purchase even a used car outright, and getting financing for cars sold on the private market is, to my knowledge, not really possible.

To me, that's the biggest reason for used-car prices to be low - the market is restricted to those who have cash. IME, the prices of cars that cannot be financed (older than 5 years) is severely constrained. I've seen a 5 year old model advertised for exactly twice the price as an almost identical 6 year old model, with similar mileage and similar condition[1].

I find that hard to reconcile with the other posters in this thread who observed that used cars are still too expensive. Maybe they are looking at used-cars that can still be financed (under $X years, for example)?

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[1] Condition of both was reported by the same independent assessor - see my posting upthread

That's not true. There's a whole industry of lenders for used cars. Interest rates are typically slightly higher than new cars but as long as you have a decent credit rating and the car isn't too old you can get financing.

Note that those lenders are separate from "buy here pay here" used car dealers. They offer their own in-house financing at much higher interest rates, targeting consumers with bad credit. Some of these are close to being a scam.

You can’t get a loan for a used car in the US?

This is pretty common in Australia. All of the banks offer car loans or “personal loans”

It's much easier to get financing than you might think if you've not tired - but the rates aren't great, and you're limited to fairly new vehicles. My bank only finances back to 2018 model years, and only 80% of what they consider to be "market value". In practice this means two things.

The first is that the cars that can be financed tend to be almost as expensive as new - but at a higher interest rate and shorter loan term. That means from a monthly budget perspective, you can end up paying as much for a used car as a new one while needing to keep funds available for repairs and maintenance.

The other is that older vehicles are typically financed without traditional "auto loans". If I wanted to finance a $5k truck, I could do so - but it would be an unsecured "personal loan" at significantly higher interest. You have to have fairly good credit to do that, too.

I'm not sure if the American credit score system is at all familiar to those outside the US, but the minimum score for a personal loan is around 600. While granted, I haven't been good with money most of my life, it took me from ages 30 to 35 to get my credit score to the point I could buy a home in 2018 (605). As soon as we closed on our home, my score went back down to ~570, and it has been a struggle ever since. In the seven years since then I've had exactly two "late" payments reported. Both were issues with autopay failing and my not noticing until I got a letter in the mail - at which point I immediately resolved the issue and brought the account current. My credit score right now is ~615. On paper, I carry a high credit card utilization that keeps it from being higher. In reality I pay all of my cards but one off every month. I could get my score up to ~680 in two months by paying off those cards and not using them - but unless I need the score for something, why would I? I have ~$6k in expenses that I run through those cards every month. I get 3% "cash back" for every purchase I make on them, so I end up earning an addition ~$180 / month for doing so; it'd be silly to not take advantage of that.

The result is that while I can get an auto loan on a used vehicle, it makes no sense for me to do so. Instead, I've not borrowed for a vehicle of my own since 2012. When I totaled my Jeep, I took the insurance payout and bought my '91 GMC.

We have two other vehicles: my wife has a 2019 F-150 Platinum, and my daughter has a 2024 Subaru Crosstrek Wilderness. Both are financed.

For the Ford, my sister wanted to trade it in on a Ram 2500. It wasn't drivable at the time due to a failed timing cover gasket, which the dealership estimated at $5k to repair. Another dealership offered her $12k for it. She owed $23k on a 0% note. With the towing package and other upgrades, it's worth ~$35k on the private market in running order - so I offered to pay off her loan on it ($23k). She agreed, then asked if I could just take over the loan she already had on it to continue to build her credit. That's what we did. I've got another two years to pay on it at ~$700 / month.

For the Subaru... well, we knowingly overspent there because my daughter's previous vehicle was destroyed when someone t-boned her on her way to school last winter. She was very hesitant to get back on the road, and my wife and I weren't exactly comfortable with the idea either. We compensated by buying her the absolute safest vehicle we could find that fit her use case. It came down to Subaru and Volvo; Subaru offered the best price and she preferred the Crosstrek or Outback anyhow. We could have gone as low as ~$25k or as high as ~$45k for a Crosstrek, depending on trim. We went for the Wilderness because it's geared slightly lower and therefore has more low-end acceleration - which is important to us, so she has the power necessary to get out of bad situations on the road if warranted. Total financed there: ~$37k, for six years, with a ~$750 / month payment.

All of this is to say: I make good money in tech. Though I am the sole income earner for the family, we're well over 2x the mean household income in my area. We have three vehicles as a family and ~$1.5k / month in vehicle payments. I don't understand how families making half of what I make are driving three vehicles <5 years old - but they absolutely are.

My entire debt load -- including our mortgage and some lingering student loans -- is less than my annual salary. I'm extremely uncomfortable with that much debt. Meanwhile, the people I see around me are living in homes that cost twice as much as ours, have more and newer vehicles, and make half as much. It makes no sense to me.

That does also basically erase any connection to the last owner - so you can't try to infer if they took care of the car or not. On top of that, afaik many second-hand dealers buy cars at auction and then often only do basic (bandaid-type?) fixes to get the car ready for sale.

Still a much better deal than new, and more accessible to people without technical car knowledge. This is how my wife buys our cars.

I live in Amsterdam, and we can absolutely afford to buy new (especially if we were to choose not to live in Amsterdam), but there are reliable car dealers where you can buy a good second hand car for a decent price. I really don't see the point in buying new.

I am originally from EE and there are reports every month on how cars cause accidents because breaks didn't work, or an entire wheel flies out of its place. Not to mention the gazillion cases of accidents caused by improper headlights.

The only reason the second-hand market works there is because most of the used cars come from Germany, and they have strict laws for checking the cars periodically. Once they roll on the EE roads for a few years, then the cracks start popping up which cause horrible accidents.

Just implying that EE is this amazing place where second-hand cars have no issues and Americans should follow the same model shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.

In Eastern Europe I regularly hear that car disintegrated into three pieces or engine fell off after a collision. These do not happen to a car having minor crash in its history, these happen to a car which had been totaled in the past. Eastern Europe is the scrapyard of Western Europe and yet its inhabitants found a way to fell superior about their 15 years old BMWs with engine mounted on three screws.

People in Eastern Europe buy new cars.

For interest's sake, what type of car is this?

This isn't the American way apparently, do you want to be a True American Patriot or some loser driving a shitbox

I still remember the first thing my bank offered me as a student in the US, a credit card, 25%+ apr, give that to a 18 years old clueless kid and you'll set them up for failure. The entire system is setup to make you think these interests rate are normal and that being in debt is a proper lifestyle

Yes, this is very much the case here in Sweden. When people started thinking about environment and second hand became fashion, all the second hand stores suddenly became as expensive as buying new. I have always been buying second hand so I'm a bit miffed.

> People aren't buying $50,000 new Ford F-150s because they just need a working car to go to work and the grocery store.

Let me introduce you to half of my block. And I live in a city with fantastic public transit where you don't even need a car. I see those loan notices in mailboxes....

"Car" typically means "passenger vehicle" in common parlance, at least in the US. A lot of truck sales like you point to are fleet sales for work vehicles, so this person is probably pointing more towards non-fleet sales, where the RAV4 is indeed the top seller.

for some reason the one-two punch putdown style of this relatively pedantic reply has me in stitches

I would disagree for a different definition of optics. As someone else who replied to me mentioned, the top selling vehicle in the US is the Toyota RAV4. Based on the many people I personally know who own them, this is a vehicle that says "I'm doing just fine thanks" even when that is very much not the case.

You don't think some people are judgmental on appearances? That that's why people buy a fancier car, fancier clothes, nicer haircut, go to the gym, go on diets and take Ozempic, etc

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You’re correct. The loans are made because they’re profitable even when the borrower defaults and a repo is performed. The car is sold to someone else and the cycle repeats. The goal is to get you off the lot and to get enough payments and interest out of the borrower so it’s a net profit even when the borrower defaults.

"America runs on credit."