Court rejects Verizon claim that selling location data without consent is legal

478 pointsposted 11 hours ago
by nobody9999

55 Comments

bilekas

5 hours ago

Verizon disputed this not because the fine was in ANY way impactful, but because they wanted to push to see if they could legally do it without any repercussions. In their last quarter alone they made over 9k million USD, if I'm reading it right [0].

> Verizon chose to pay fine, giving up right to jury trial

40Million fine is a cost of doing business, but my question is if people's data was sold without consent, why is a class action not taken against them? Where is the right of the injured party here ?

[0 ]https://www.verizon.com/about/investors/quarterly-reports/2q...

0xEF

4 hours ago

When the punishment for the crime is a fine, it's just a subscription service that allows the wealthy to break rules, trust and expectations.

But, let's push that fine up to $40 billion US (with a b) and see what happens. If we need to go harder, let's add some enforceability, too. Maybe they have 1 year to pay it or lose the right to do business in the US (or whatever country) for 12 months? Get creative with the pain, but cause it none the less.

Walk softly, but carry a big stick.

rickdeckard

4 hours ago

> But, let's push that fine up to $40 billion US (with a b) and see what happens.

Or a percentage of the global revenue. That's basically the EU's GDPR directive.

Worked wonders. US should try that too once it's back on a citizen-friendly path again...

petcat

2 hours ago

> Or a percentage of the global revenue. That's basically the EU's GDPR directive.

> Worked wonders.

Unfortunately the GDPR is mostly toothless considering that the fines against Meta and Amazon were basically nothing. Certainly nothing close to a "percentage of global revenue".

Honestly, the whole thing seems aimed at just shaking down American tech companies to try to collect some additional revenue to keep funding the EU bureaucracy.

The system only exists to preserve itself.

latexr

an hour ago

> Honestly, the whole thing seems aimed at just shaking down American tech companies

Not if you follow the cases as they happen. You probably think of the USA companies (and even then only a subset) being fined because those are both the biggest offenders and the ones with the most money, in addition to being the most well known.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic

But they are far from being the only ones affected. noyb pursues cases all over Europe too.

https://noyb.eu/en/project/cases

rickdeckard

an hour ago

Well Meta was fined 1.2bn Euro in 2023 for violating GDPR guidelines, the latest being another 91m Euro in 2024 IIRC, making the total so far somewhere along 2.5 billion euros.

A quick Google-search tells me Meta's Europe Revenues in 2023 were 31.21bn USD, so the fine was ~3.5% of their Europe revenue at least (but yes, lesser on their global revenue).

Either way, the purpose of GDPR is not to earn money, but to reach compliance to the guidelines. The directive didn't fail if a company wasn't fined for not being compliant, it's the lever to reach compliance.

> Honestly, the whole thing seems aimed at just shaking down American tech companies to try to collect some additional revenue to keep funding the EU bureaucracy.

There's a world outside of US as well, even within Europe.

Companies whose main business is to deal with personal data are of course harder to transform, but it's hard to overstate the impact GDPR already had on the huge mass of companies who DON'T primarily deal with personal data.

Many People on here who worked in a larger company when GDPR became effective have seen the seismic impact it had on how PI/PII data is being handled. Suddenly companies asked themselves whether they REALLY need all this PII in all those different data silos across their operations.

GDPR isn't perfect, the EU isn't perfect, but with GDPR the EU made a leap forward in Private Data Protection.

johndhi

39 minutes ago

I work in this field and disagree with a lot here.

My thinking is that if a data protection office did not fine Meta or Bytedance in a given year, heads would roll. It's a revenue collection device.

petcat

an hour ago

> GDPR became effective have seen the seismic impact it had on how PI/PII data is being handled.

I think the only thing most people are seeing are the absolutely obnoxious cookie banners spewed across the entire world wide web. I think a lot of people truly believe that the EU single-handedly ruined the internet. And now they're attempting to impose even more misguided laws on themselves with chatcontrol nonsense.

I think it's fine to let them do it, as long as the mess stays in the EU.

bell-cot

27 minutes ago

Whatever amount you actually manage to fine them, they'll just find ways to make other people pay.

Instead, start revoking their spectrum licenses.

gruez

13 minutes ago

>In their last quarter alone they made over 9k million USD, if I'm reading it right [0].

How much did they make selling or otherwise monetizing location data?

jimmySixDOF

8 hours ago

Will this protection extend to automobile companies ? Mobile Apps ? Mobile OSs ? I have lost track of the number of leakage points for location data into the tarball of databrokers.

cm2187

6 hours ago

Not much of a protection. They will just add one more line in the 50 pages terms of service you have to agree to to get a contract.

comex

8 hours ago

Nope. The court is applying an old law that specifically applies to carriers providing "telecommunications services", no one else.

(Incidentally, even the term "telecommunications service" only encompasses voice call service, not mobile data or SMS. The FCC tried to reclassify Internet access as a telecommunications service during the Obama and Biden administrations, in order to get authority to impose net neutrality rules, but it was ultimately overturned in court.)

rsingel

5 hours ago

Close but the Obama 2015 reclassification was actually upheld. Law of the land from 2015 to 2018.

Ajit Pai undid it, a court said reverting was fine because DNS.

Biden FCC took forever to reclassify and then lost in a Trumpy circuit court. Advocates didn't appeal largely because the courts are so screwed now and don't want an awful Supreme Court ruling.

But it's very clear for the law that internet communications actually are telecom, and I suspect we'll see this revisited in the future

AnimalMuppet

3 minutes ago

Given that in practice voice is now just data, it should be revised. But that's expecting the law to match technical reality, which may be overoptimistic...

m463

7 hours ago

> "telecommunications service" only encompasses voice call service

I wonder if those helpful text messages from some company can locate you?

I've heard that tow truck companies can find your location because it is somewhat like and emergency.

by the way, verizon is just plain evil.

I remember years ago when they would add identifying cookies to all web requests outgoing from your phone to identify your specific handset. (search "verizon supercookie")

staplers

5 hours ago

  I've heard that tow truck companies can find your location because it is somewhat like and emergency.
Anyone can find your location if they pay one of the data brokers who resell the info the cell carrier sells.

Source: https://www.fogdatascience.com/

autoexec

8 hours ago

The courts have decided that Verizon selling location data without consent is illegal but I'd be willing to bet that the courts haven't decided that it should be unprofitable.

I'd be surprised if Verizon and the other companies haven't made more than enough money by breaking the law back in 2018 to rake in a nice profit even after the fines they're trying to weasel out of paying now.

I have no doubt that they're still selling our data one way or another anyway. We know for a fact that they've never stopped selling data to to law enforcement, they just require a rubber stamped court order/subpoena to do it.

fn-mote

11 hours ago

I like this part:

[denied because…] > Verizon had, and chose to forgo, the opportunity for a jury trial in federal court.

petertodd

11 hours ago

That was probably a sound legal strategy. Selling location data without consent is obviously unethical behavior that should be illegal. A jury is more likely to rule on the basis of that; with a judge maybe there's a chance that a technicality in the law leads to a ruling in their favor.

Anyway, this practice should be criminalized with companies and their employees receiving criminal penalties like jail time.

kevin_thibedeau

10 hours ago

It won't because the US government relies on third parties to funnel data into its panopticon as a constitutional side step.

thrwaway55

9 hours ago

Replace employee with exec. An employee may need a job and can be coerced for reasons they don't control.

petertodd

7 hours ago

"Just following orders" is not a valid excuse.

Besides, one reason why they can be coerced is because these actions aren't clearly illegal. If they are, the employee can just report what they're being asked to do to the police. Workplace safety has been dramatically improved in western countries simply by making many unsafe practices illegal and creating entities to report illegal work to. While this did require criminal charges for some managers and employees, because safety has improved so much, they're really not that common.

I remember when I had workplace safety training as a poorly paid university lab monitor. They made clear that I had potential criminal legal liability if I allowed egregiously unsafe things to happen. So they didn't.

soulofmischief

9 hours ago

That same position legitimizes basically all police brutality.

akoboldfrying

8 hours ago

It doesn't legitimize all police brutality, only whatever amount of it is necessary to keep your job.

And legitimising this is appropriate. The only other position -- requiring people to behave in a way that doesn't meet their basic needs for survival -- would be inappropriate. It is the responsibility of those in power to prevent society from degrading to a point where police are forced to be violent in order to keep their jobs.

Frieren

7 hours ago

If a doctor fucks up is liable for bad practice. If an architect fucks up is liable for bad practice.

CEOs, CTOs, etc. of organizations with the budged of small countries can be stupid, unknowledgeable and reckless and there are no consequences (unless it affects shareholders money). Executives should be held legally accountable of the damage that their companies do.

Accountability is required for a civilized society. When the people with the most power do not need to follow any rule we get into anarchy and chaos. Just watch the news to see that it is already happening.

zelphirkalt

5 hours ago

What makes this more infuriating is that they always point to their additional responsibilities, when it comes to pay/salary. Oh yes, they need to manage sooo much responsibility! But when these things happen, no one seems to be taking the responsibility. Very strange. Almost as if some people only want the upsides of "responsibility".

baranul

2 hours ago

Also known as "have your cake and eat it too".

baranul

2 hours ago

There are also various ways that big companies have to influence judges or increase the odds of getting favorable ones, not even mentioning outright corruption, where quickly and randomly selected jurors are harder to touch.

slowhadoken

11 hours ago

I feel like a cop looking at this company’s behavior. “If you’re not guilty why are you acting guilty, Verizon?”

its-kostya

an hour ago

How much have they profited from selling this vs how much the fine was? Fines these days appear as just a cost of doing business.

eagerpace

2 hours ago

Are there any carriers that don’t do this?

monksy

8 hours ago

Assuming they'll lose this, they'll probably move to coercing the selling of your location data as "part of doing business with them." Sigh.

bryanrasmussen

6 hours ago

what are the ways you can poison or fake your location data, like if Verizon in response to this decides to offer a cheaper plan for sharing your location data?

codeduck

6 hours ago

gps spoofer perhaps?

silisili

6 hours ago

It's much more likely they're selling tower triangulation data, but let me know if that theory is wrong.

malux85

8 hours ago

How much did they make selling the data?

If it's greater than the fine, and they suffer no other consequences (e.g. nobody goes to jail) then the fine is just cost-of-business.

The fine must be greater than what they made, AND some executives or management needs to be held responsible - at least fired.

Otherwise it will just keep happening.

rickdeckard

3 hours ago

Even better, the fine should be a percentage of the whole annual company revenue. So the action cannot be evaluated with an isolated break-even calculation.

CommenterPerson

an hour ago

Exactly. If a shoplifter only paid a small percentage for stolen goods it would become a great career same as surveillance capitalism.

electric_muse

8 hours ago

Carriers have been selling this stuff forever. The only surprise is that they were arrogant enough to argue it was outright legal rather than hiding behind “user consent” fine print.

The bigger issue is that every telecom treats location data as an asset class. If you think a court ruling will make them suddenly respect privacy, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. They’ll just bury consent deeper in the UX until it looks indistinguishable from compliance.

Terr_

4 hours ago

As a fun but impractical thought-experiment, imagine the differences in a world with a rule like: "If you voluntarily share data about a customer which becomes instrumental in crime committed against that customer, the company is considered an accomplice to the crime."

rickdeckard

3 hours ago

It's not just telecom, the usage data of a product is naturally an asset of every company.

It's just a matter whether this data contains PI (=Personal Information) or (!) PII (=Personally Identifiable Information --> Information that can be combined with other data to create PI).

The EU GDPR (here mostly known for consent-popups on websites it seems) allows companies to keep this kind of data but requires very strict governance and user-consent if the data contains PI or PII.

And everyone who worked in a larger company at the time of enforcement saw the wonders it did. Suddenly whole departments reviewed the amount of data they collect, and found there was a huge portion of telemetry data that was actually NOT needed to preserve this asset-value (Names, Addresses, Serial numbers, etc...)

cwmoore

8 hours ago

Retroactively assign all future data value to...the next president?

rickdeckard

4 hours ago

Or transfer to the "Archive of the presidency" upon retirement of the current president, so it can be used to finance e.g. jet fuel... /s

GJim

5 hours ago

So, when will 'murka wake up and protect its people with real data privacy laws like (or even better than) the GDPR?

woadwarrior01

4 hours ago

The grass is always greener on the other side. I live in the EU and GDPR isn't much better. All it requires is "informed consent" (i.e a click or a tap on a button) from the "data subject" and people can evade privacy with impunity. The only side effect is that those of us on this side of the pond, get ugly cookie banners.

GJim

3 hours ago

> All it requires is "informed consent" (i.e a click or a tap on a button) from the "data subject"

Correct. Clear, opt-in informed consent to use personal data is the fundamental principle of the GDPR. As it should be. I'm puzzled why you think this is a negative.

> and people can evade privacy with impunity.

Certainly not. The GDPR does not permit data trawling or allowing data controllers to do what they like with your personal data once they have it. It must only be used for the purpose it was requested for.

> ugly cookie banners

Once again, there is no requirement for 'cookie banners'. You are free to use whatever cookies you want to run your site. HOWEVER, if you are using those cookies to track me (advertisers take a bow) then you need my clear, opt-in informed consent to do so. And so you should!

I continue to be astounded at the ignorance some people have of such a vital privacy law; one that is fundamental to modern data use and respect for the customer.

woadwarrior01

25 minutes ago

> Certainly not. The GDPR does not permit data trawling or allowing data controllers to do what they like with your personal data once they have it. It must only be used for the purpose it was requested for.

You might want to read the privacy policies of some of the European fintech and ad-tech companies (nb: I've worked at some of them). They cast a wide blanket over all purposes.

At best, the GDPR only introduces a minor indirection, the problem of hoodwinking the "data subject" into clicking the accept button. At worst, it gives them false sense of privacy, where there isn't much.

tonyhart7

8 hours ago

even with user consent, they should ban it period

taneq

2 hours ago

Oooh ooh now to Mastercard and your credit card transaction records!

SilverElfin

9 hours ago

Great. Now jail the executives, pierce the veil, seize their assets.

slowhadoken

11 hours ago

Pretty soon you’re going to need insurance for your paycheck. When people are poorest that’s when corporate types turn the screws lmfao smh