graemep
6 hours ago
I think there is a lot going on that contributes to this.
1. Adults read less, so children see their parents reading less often (it at all!) so do not grow up thinking it is a fun thing to do. I love reading because my parents did, and my kids do because I do.
2. Schools do not make reading enjoyable. A teacher I know suggested that their school did somethings to make reading fun, and the management refused because it improve any of their metrics. A friend of by daughter's went to a school where there were times when they had to sit and read a book - nothing kills enjoyment better than being forced to do something. You are telling kids its a chore you have to do, not something done for fun.
There are other things do. There are schools that teach Shakespeare for English literature GCSE without giving them the whole text, and without watching a video of the play, let along going to the theatre.
3. There are fewer and smaller local libraries so kids cannot discover what they like as easily. There are fewer bookshops too, because people read less.
Loughla
4 hours ago
>management refused because it improve any of their metrics
This is what everyone in the United States asked for. You wanted data driven decision making. Do not be surprised when the measure becomes the goal.
Sorry if this sounds bitter, but I spent all day yesterday arguing with administration at a college that data driven decision making is only as good as the data you feed the system, and that specifically targeting metric improvement for its own sake is step one in the road to mind death.
graemep
3 hours ago
The case I was talking about was in the UK.
ACCount37
4 hours ago
We "wanted data driven decision making" because it beats vibe driven decision making. Even if data is meh.
agentcoops
4 hours ago
There are more divisions than just “data” vs “vibes.” After all, even in the natural sciences, the best data is useless without an explanation/hypothesis that can never just be reduced to the data. Precisely what is thrown out in the decline of reading is familiarity with the centuries of hard-won Enlightenment knowledge, especially concerning the stakes of education, which isn’t just vibes and that ought precisely drive our further data-driven insight into these questions.
Second best, however, I’d take the “vibes” of a random teacher over the religion-based decision making that seems to be on the rise in the US. “Data-driven” religiously motivated educational policy is the worst of all possible worlds.
ACCount37
2 hours ago
We don't use things like SAT because it's an ideal direct metric that captures how educated a student is perfectly, and allows for impeccable measurement of how successful the educational system is.
We use it because it beats the alternative - which is either going off vibes or using even more indirect metrics to measure how successful the educational system is.
If there's one school that claims it successfully teaches children to love reading, and another school that makes no such claim, but has +50 on SAT over the first school across the board? The second one is probably a better school.
contagiousflow
an hour ago
> If there's one school that claims it successfully teaches children to love reading, and another school that makes no such claim, but has +50 on SAT over the first school across the board? The second one is probably a better school.
Or it's better at SAT prep? That's the entire point of OPs comment. Metrics become targets and then anything (that may still be incredibly important) but doe not contribute to that target gets lost.
ACCount37
44 minutes ago
"+50 on SAT across the board" requires at least being fairly good at SAT prep.
"Claims it successfully teaches children to love reading" requires nothing but a willingness to make unsubstantiated claims.
Both are imperfect performance indicators, but one is considerably less imperfect than the other.
jacobolus
24 minutes ago
SAT prep per se is an unbelievably shitty thing for people to waste their time on. It's largely mindless and uninteresting, stifles rather than encouraging curiosity, emphasizes judging people by substantially arbitrary numerical scores, gives the false impression that some people are inherently better than others, and, in the medium to long term, is a grossly inefficient way to improve performance on the SAT.
If you want your own kids to get a high SAT language score when they are high school students, the top things you can do to help them are: (1) read aloud to them when they are very young, as much as you have time for, (2) keep reading aloud to them when they are older, (3) encourage them to read as much as they want for pleasure.
If you want your own kids to get a high math score, (1) surround them with technical materials (construction toys, logic puzzles, board games, circuit parts, programmable robots, whatever etc.) and play with them together – or if on a tight budget, improvise materials from whatever you have at hand, and (2) spend time working non-trivial word problems one-on-one. Start from https://archive.org/details/creativeproblems0000lenc
If you have the personal time to do these steps, you won't have to give a shit about what their SAT score is, because it will be good enough for whatever they need it for.
lo_zamoyski
2 hours ago
The primary gist of what you wrote is important for people to grasp. Allow me to expand on it a bit, because thoughtless attitudes about "data" are pervasive, perhaps especially among the SV crackpots.
"Data" comes from datum [0], that is, what is given. What are the data or givens of measurement?
Whenever we measure something, we do so from the standpoint of some prior conceptualization. It makes no sense to speak of measurement apart from some conceptual context, as the measurement is of something as it is understood. It is through this conceptual background that we can situate some thing as a measurement, as data, and understand the meaning of this measurement, infer implications, and so on. Some call this the theory-ladenness of observation.
So you cannot say "Data! QED.", first, the meaning of the given is inaccessible without knowledge of its nature and the prior knowledge that allows us to locate the data in the appropriate context, and second, because data are not arguments. Data are used in arguments.
So if your conceptual context is flawed, your measurements are vulnerable, both in their motivating rationale and in their interpretation. A little error in the beginning leads to a great one in the end. And there's a lot of crap people carry around in their conceptual baggage.
So, we have at least three attack surfaces: the conceptual presuppositions of a theory, the theory, and the data sought to corroborate the theory.
Of course, theory-ladenness does not necessarily entail relativism [1]. So, the point isn't that we can't know anything, so anything goes, or that we don't know anything, so burn it all down. The argument is that we should be more cognizant of the bases of our justifications.
[0] https://www.etymonline.com/word/data
[1] https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2025/08/hanson-on-observati...
snapcaster
4 hours ago
I would push back on that. I think often people's "vibes" are a lot closer to reality than extremely gamed metrics
ACCount37
3 hours ago
There are people whose "vibes" are closer to reality than hard cold data. And then there are people who think their "vibes" are closer to reality than hard cold data.
The second group is much, much larger.
I don't trust vibes.
andsoitis
3 hours ago
Do you trust your own intuition and judgment on at least some matters or topics where data is scarce, ambiguous, or contradictory?
teamonkey
3 hours ago
In the absence of data yes, but intuition and judgement are just heuristics; they suffer strongly from personal biases and are not necessarily representative of reality.
andsoitis
2 hours ago
It also requires judgment and critical thinking to decide things like:
a) is this data accurate
b) is this data complete
c) is this data relevant
etc.
So even the act of selecting data is subject to bias, good judgment.
elevaet
2 hours ago
Sometimes vibes includes things we're trying to get away from like stereotyping visible groups of people.
lo_zamoyski
2 hours ago
Interesting your mind went there.
somenameforme
2 hours ago
Vibes can be data. Take for instance the economy. All of these things like the GDP, employment figures, and so are supposed to be objective measurements. But precisely because of this they've been gamed to the point of absolute meaninglessness. Recent news regarding jobs numbers over the past 4 years emphasize this to the point of absurdity. All good numbers go up, all bad numbers go down. How's the economy doing? *shrug*
By contrast poll people on their 'vibes' of the economy and you'd suddenly get some real and meaningful data that can't really be gamed beyond outright lying about the results. You'd of course have things like people wearing rose colored glasses with regards to the economy when 'their side' is in power, but that doesn't really change the validity of their opinion. And those opinions, as an aggregate, can really provide a lot of really valuable information.
tux3
3 hours ago
It depends. Not all good things are legible and easy to put into a spreadsheet.
Blind data-driven decisions destroy all illegible good in this world that can't be boiled down to some number going up. And there's a lot of it.
strken
4 hours ago
Does it? How do you know?
panda-giddiness
2 hours ago
Unfortunately, addressing those issues would do little to address the underlying cause: We have many more ways to amuse ourselves compared to a generation ago, most of which require less "reach" for a dopamine hit (social media, netflix, video games, etc).
CompoundEyes
5 hours ago
20-30 minutes of quiet reading time is recess for some of the introverts.
squigz
6 hours ago
> A friend of by daughter's went to a school where there were times when they had to sit and read a book - nothing kills enjoyment better than being forced to do something. You are telling kids its a chore you have to do, not something done for fun.
This is, I think, a tricky line to walk. Reading is, like most things, a skill that must be practiced, and school is a good place to do so. I think a bigger part of this practice that kills enjoyment is not being able to choose what you're reading; of course kids are going to dislike reading when they're forced to read books or stories they have no interest in at all.
Symbiote
32 minutes ago
Are children forced to read 'boring' books in the quiet reading time at school? I thought the point of that time was to read your own book (chosen from home, the public library, or the school library).
As far as I know, school libraries still exist, and still have a wide selection of books. The books are rotated around schools in a county so the selection doesn't get stale.
graemep
6 hours ago
They need to learn to read but not told "you must read" even if they have a choice.
My kids learned to read with me (flashcards, Ladybird books) for fun (flashcards were a game), and then just carried on by themselves by picking up interesting books (which relies on having access to interesting books - having books at home makes a huge difference, as does access to libraries and bookshops)
Telemakhos
4 hours ago
One of those inconvenient facts: kids who will be successful in life learn to read at home before starting formal schooling, and they have an adult who reads with them three or more times a week; kids who don't get that at home are much more likely to remain illiterate or to read at well below their grade level. It's inconvenient because there isn't anything anyone except the parent(s) can do about it, and the parent has already made that choice by the time the kid gets to school.
graemep
an hour ago
This seems to vary quite a bit across countries which suggests to me that something can be done about it - I cannot say what though.
Parents can be encouraged and informed, to an extent, but the problem is that if they do not enjoy reading, you cannot pass on something you do not have yourself.
Another problem in the UK is that I think policy makers think of reading as a life skill, and education in general as preparation for work, rather than as something to enjoy - at least for the hoi polloi (or "the gammon" to use a disturbingly common term), their own kids are different.
watwut
an hour ago
> kids who will be successful in life learn to read at home before starting formal schooling
What I did read was that early reading is not important to anything of importance, at best it can be a proxy to filter out neglected kids. Whether the kid can learn at that point is a question of brain development and you as a parent wont achieve nothing by trying to force it.
notmyjob
3 hours ago
Stress and pressure due to the job market and housing costs. Smarter teens are drilling leetcode to stay competitive so they won’t be destitute when the boomers liquidate social security and deficit us all into eternal serfdom, or that’s what one of them told me when I asked why he didn’t spend more time reading novels.
throawaywpg
24 minutes ago
im getting ready for a life of video gaming and living on a beach in a 3rd world country...
sandworm101
2 hours ago
I would say that they are reading fewer books but I think total number of hours reading is similar or growing.
Reading tweets and text messages is still reading. My nephew has trouble learning to read, until he started playing minecraft and needed to read websites and instructions for mods and such. Then getting his first cellphone did away with any concept of reading difficulties. We have entire economies of people reading text on computers all day (ie my job). I would bet that the average person today read better/faster than their equivalent in centuries past. They are reading junk, but they are actually reading.
Peritract
34 minutes ago
A lot of the time they're skimming, rather than reading in depth. This is great for picking up key information quickly from a wiki, but it's also easy to miss something complex-but-vital.