Knowledge and memory

71 pointsposted 4 days ago
by zdw

32 Comments

gobdovan

3 hours ago

OpenAI just recently took a systematic look into why models hallucinate [0][1].

The article you shared raises an interesting point by comparing human memory with LLMs, but I think the analogy can only go so far. They're too distinct to explain hallucinations simply as a lack of meta-cognition or meta-memory. These systems are more like alien minds, and allegories risk introducing imprecision when we're trying to debug and understand their behavior.

OpenAI's paper instead identifies hallucinations as a bug in training objectives and benchmarks, and is grounding the explanation in first principles and the mechanics of ML.

Metaphors are useful for creativity, but less so when it comes to debugging and understanding, especially now that the systematic view is this advanced.

[0] https://openai.com/index/why-language-models-hallucinate/?ut... [1] https://cdn.openai.com/pdf/d04913be-3f6f-4d2b-b283-ff432ef4a...

mallowdram

25 minutes ago

This is patently false.

"I’ll remind you that biologists do not, in the year 2025, know memory’s physical substrate in the brain! Plenty of hypotheses — no agreement. Is there any more central mystery in human biology, maybe even human existence?"

A hypothesis is very distinct from theoretical knowledge. A hypothesis lacks empirical evidence. A theory uses empirical information. That CS personnel are lacking both the scientific method and the ability to discern the current state of the art empirical research to disprove such wildly unsupported statements speaks to the field's total failure to develop present-day relevant tools. I would direct the author to two critical books

Evolution of Memory Systems

https://academic.oup.com/book/26033

How we remember: brain mechanisms of episodic memory

https://direct.mit.edu/books/monograph/2909/How-We-RememberB...

ckemere

28 minutes ago

As a memory neuroscientist, I enjoyed the shoutout here to episodic memory. It strikes me, however, that a feature that I've noticed when observing "reasoning" models is that they may explicitly search for evidence for intermediate pieces of their responses. If we're following the "remember"/"know" distinction developed by Squire and others, perhaps the more apt analogy might be that a singly pass through an LLM is similar to a "I know this" result, prone to hallucination, conflation, etc., and the multipass reasoning model might be more akin to the "I remember this" result, where primary evidence serves as a substrate for the response?

mallowdram

15 minutes ago

The terms are arbitrary and don't relate to human memory. Using the term "I know this" is a post-hoc retrofit to a process exclusively accessed wordlessly. Just as "I remember this" does not access that process, but rather comments on the aftermath pretty unscientifically, like a sportscaster trying to read a pitcher's mind.

“We refute (based on empirical evidence) claims that humans use linguistic representations to think.” Ev Fedorenko Language Lab MIT 2024

Muromec

6 hours ago

Yesterday I asked one LLM about certain provisions of Ukrainian law, where severity threshold for a financial crime was specified indirectly through a certain well known constant. The machine got it wrong and when asked to give sources cited the respective law referencing a similary sounding unit. Amazingly it gave the correct English tranlation but gave me the wrong original in Ukrainian.

I guess it merged two tokens why learning the text.

Amazingly it also knows about difference between two constants, but referrs to the wrong one in both calculations and in hallucinating the quote.

It's tedious to always check for stuff like this.

Then I asked a different LLM and it turned out that actually the constant is monkey patched for specific contexts and both me and the first lying machine were wrong

juancroldan

42 minutes ago

The fundamental limitation of LLMs is that they represent knowledge as parametric curves, and their generalization is merely interpolation of those curves. This can only ever produce results that correlate with facts (training data), not ones that are causally derived from them, which makes hallucinations inevitable. Same as with human memory.

devstein

2 hours ago

I believe this is why the importance of written (human) knowledge is only increasing, especially internally at companies. Written knowledge (i.e documentation) has always served as a knowledge cache and a way to transfer knowledge between people.

Without fundamental changes to the LLMs or the way we think about agentic systems, high quality, comprehensive written knowledge is the best path to helping agents "learn" over time.

burnte

2 hours ago

I agree with the folks who call these screwups rather than hallucinations because the point of LLMs isn't to be right, it's to be statistically highly likely. If making something up fits that model, then that's what it will do. That's literally how it works.

ClaraForm

6 hours ago

I'm not convinced the brain stores memories, or that memory storage is required for human intelligence. And we "hallucinate" all the time. See: eye witness testimony being wrong regularly, "paranormal" experiences etc.

It's a statement that /feels/ true, because we can all look "inside" our heads and "see" memories and facts. But we may as well be re-constructing facts on the fly, just as re-construct reality itself to sense it.

n4r9

6 hours ago

What do you mean, you're not convinced that the brain stores memories? What is happening in the brain when you have an experience and later recall that same experience? It might not be perfect recall but something is being stored.

ClaraForm

5 hours ago

I mean an LLM (bad example, but good enough for what I'm trying to convey) doesn't need any sort of "memory" to be able to reconstruct something that looks like intelligence. It stores weights, and can re-assemble "facts" from those weights, independent of the meaning or significance of those facts. It's possible the brain is similar, on a much more refined scale. My brain certainly doesn't store 35,000 instances of my mum's image to help me identify her, just an averaged image to help me know when I'm looking at my mum.

The brain definitely stores things, and retrieval and processing are key to the behaviour that comes out the other end, but whether it's "memory" like what this article tries to define, I'm not sure. The article makes it a point to talk about instances where /lack/ of a memory is a sign of the brain doing something different from an LLM, but the brain is pretty happy to "make up" a "memory", from all of my reading and understanding.

ckemere

33 minutes ago

Addressing the second paragraph here - while conflation and reconsolidation are real phenomena, it's also quite clear that most humans form episodic memories. Some quite clearly have incredible abilities in this regard [2].

A distinction between semantic (facts/concepts) and episodic (specific experiences) declarative memories are fairly well established since at least the 1970s. That the latter is required to construct the former is also long posited, with reasonable evidence [1]. Similarly, there's a slightly more recent distinction between "recollecting" (i.e., similar to the author's "I can remember the event of learning this") and "knowing" (i.e., "I know this but don't remember why"), with differences in hypothesized recall mechanisms [3].

[1] https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.277.5324.33... or many other reviews by Eichenbaum, Squire, Milner, etc

[2] https://youtu.be/hpTCZ-hO6iI?si=FeFv8MGmHTzkLd8p

[3] https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1995-42814-001

mallowdram

18 minutes ago

Is the idea cars start a fact or a concept? Is the certainty I remember how this particular car starts a fact?

Once we begin to disengage from the arbitrariness inherent in arbitrary metaphors, and rely on what actually generates memories (action-neural-spatial-syntax), we can study what's really happening in the allocortex's distribution of cues between sense/emotion into memory.

Until then we will simply be trapped in falsely segregated ideas of episodic/semantic.

HarHarVeryFunny

5 hours ago

The article isn't about LLMs storing things - it's about why they hallucinate, which is in large part due to the fact that they just deal in word statistics not facts, but also (the point of the article) that they have no episodic memories, or any personal experience of any sort for that matter.

Humans can generally differentiate between when they know something or not, and I'd agree with the article that this is because we tend to remember how we know things, and also have different levels of confidence according to source. Personal experience trumps watching someone else, which trumps hearing or being taught it from a reliable source, which trumps having read something on Twitter or some grafitti on a bathroom stall. To the LLM all text is just statistics, and it has no personal experience to lean to to self-check and say "hmm, I can't recall ever learning that - I'm drawing blanks".

Frankly it's silly to compare LLMs (Transformers) and brains. An LLM was only every meant to be a linguistics model, not a brain or cognitive architecture. I think people get confused because if spits out human text and so people anthropomorphize it and start thinking it's got some human-like capabilities under the hood when it is in fact - surprise surprise - just a pass-thru stack of Transformer layers. A language model.

ClaraForm

3 hours ago

Hey, I know what the article wanted to say, see the last two-ish sentences of my previous response. My point, is that the article might be mis-interpreting what the causes and solutions for the problems it sees. Relying on the brain as an example of how to improve might be a mistaken premise, because maybe the brain isn't doing what the article thinks it's doing. So we're in agreement there, that the brain and LLMs are incomparable, but maybe the parts where they're comparable are more informative on the nature of hallucinations than the author may think.

HarHarVeryFunny

an hour ago

But the thing is that humans don't hallucinate as much as LLMs, so it's the differences not similarities (such as they are) that are important to understand why that is.

It's pretty obvious that an LLM not knowing what it does or does not know is a major part of it hallucinating, while humans do generally know the limits of their own knowledge.

n4r9

2 hours ago

I think you can confidently say that brains do the following and LLMs don't:

* Continuously updates its state based on sensory data

* Retrieves/gathers information that correlates strongly with historic sensory input

* Is able to associate propositions with specific instances of historic sensory input

* Uses the above two points to verify/validate its belief in said propositions

Describing how memories "feel" may confuse the matter, I agree. But I don't think we should be quick to dismiss the argument.

DavidSJ

4 hours ago

> An LLM was only every meant to be a linguistics model, not a brain or cognitive architecture.

See https://gwern.net/doc/cs/algorithm/information/compression/1... from 1999.

Answering questions in the Turing test (What are roses?) seems to require the same type of real-world knowledge that people use in predicting characters in a stream of natural language text (Roses are ___?), or equivalently, estimating L(x) [the probability of x when written by a human] for compression.

HarHarVeryFunny

an hour ago

I'm not sure what your point is?

Perhaps in 1999 it seemed reasonable to think that passing the Turing Test, or maximally compressing/predicting human text makes for a good AI/AGI test, but I'd say we now know better, and more to the point that does not appear to have been the motivation for designing the Transformer, or the other language models that preceded it.

The recent history leading to the Transformer was the development of first RNN then LSTM-based language models, then the addition of attention, with the primary practical application being for machine translation (but more generally for any sequence-to-sequence mapping task). The motivation for the Transformer was to build a more efficient and scalable language model by using parallel processing, not sequential (RNN/LSTM), to take advantage of GPU/TPU acceleration.

The conceptual design of what would become the Transformer came from Google employee Jakob Uzkoreit who has been interviewed about this - we don't need to guess the motivation. There were two key ideas, originating from the way linguists use syntax trees to represent the hierarchical/grammatical structure of a sentence.

1) Language is as much parallel as sequential, as can be seen by multiple independent branches of the syntax tree, which only join together at the next level up the tree

2) Language is hierarchical, as indicated by the multiple levels of a branching sytntax tree

Put together these two considerations suggests processing the entire sentence in parallel, taking advantage of GPU parallelism (not sequentially like an LSTM), and having multiple layers of such parallel processing to hierarchically process the sentence. This eventually lead to the stack of parallel-processing Transformer layers design, which did retain the successful idea of attention (thus the paper name "Attention is all you need [not RNNs/LSTMs]").

As far as the functional capability of this new architecture, the initial goal was just to be as good as the LSTM + attention language models it aimed to replace (but be more efficient to train & scale). The first realization of the "parallel + hierarchical" ideas by Uzkoreit was actually less capable than its predecesssors, but then another Google employee, Noam Shazeer, got involved and eventually (after a process of experimentation and ablation) arrived at the Transformer design which did perform well on the language modelling task.

Even at this stage, nobody was saying "if we scale this up it'll be AGI-like". It took multiple steps of scaling, from early Google's early Muppet-themed BERT (following their LSTM-based ELMo), to OpenAI's GPT-1, GPT-2 and GPT-3 for there to be a growing realization of how good a next-word predictor, with corresponding capabilities, this architecture was when scaled up. You can read the early GPT papers and see the growing level of realization - they were not expecting it to be this capable.

Note also that when Shazeer left Google, disappointed that they were not making better use of his Transformer baby, he did not go off and form an AGI company - he went and created Character.ai making fantasy-themed ChatBots (similar to Google having experimented with ChatBot use, then abandoning it, since without OpenAI's innovation of RLHF Transformer-based ChatBots were unpredictable and a corporate liability).

roxolotl

4 hours ago

I don’t know if this aligns with your thinking but there is a theory that memory is largely reconstructed every time it is remembered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructive_memory

ClaraForm

3 hours ago

Thank you for that! I think I read about this a long time ago, internalized it, and forgot it. Pretty on the nose in this conversation... haha.

soulofmischief

2 hours ago

A payload plus a transformation process is still storage, just compressed storage. There's conceptually little difference between storing data and the process that gets called to create that data.

burnte

2 hours ago

> I'm not convinced the brain stores memories

By what mechanism do you feel I "remember" last week?

myflash13

an hour ago

There is a theory known as "morphic resonance" which suggests that events and objects exist in the world as something analogous to radio waves. So when you "recall" a memory it is not because it is stored in the brain anywhere but rather you are picking up signals from the universe like a radio receiver.

graemep

6 hours ago

its not reliable, but we can also recall things accurately.

it does not store things in the way records of any sort do, but it does have a some store and recall mechanism that works.

To be fair, LLMs do this too - I just got ChatGPT to recite Ode to Autumn.

ClaraForm

5 hours ago

Yes, I agree. I'm not against the idea that the brain can "store" things. Just whether our concept of how a "memory" "feels" is useful to us further understanding the brain's function.

1899-12-30

35 minutes ago

LLMs behaviour is a lot closer to primary orality than literacy.

tolerance

4 hours ago

You know, whatever memory is or where it’s at and however the mind works, I’m grateful I’ve got mine in tact right now and I appreciate science’s inability to zero in on these things.

It’s nice to know that this sort of appreciation is becoming more common. Somewhere between tech accelerationism and protestant resistance are those willing to re-interrogate human nature in anticipation of what lies ahead.

A different blog post from this month detailing an experience with ChatGPT that netted a similar reflection: https://zettelkasten.de/posts/the-scam-called-you-dont-have-...

a3w

6 hours ago

> I’ll remind you that biologists do not, in the year 2025, know memory’s physical substrate in the brain! Plenty of hypotheses — no agreement. Is there any more central mystery in human biology, maybe even human existence?

Did they not recently transfer memory of how to solve a maze from one mouse to another, giving credibility to what can store information?

Searching, I only find the RNA transfers done in 60s, which ran into some problems. I thought a recent study did transfer proteins.

sd9

3 hours ago

I would love to see some sources for this. Sounds super interesting. When do we get Matrix-style learning modules?

GaggiX

6 hours ago

A model is capable of learning the "calibration" during the reinforcement learning phase, in this "old" post from OpenAI: https://openai.com/index/introducing-simpleqa/ you can see the positive correlation between stated confidence and accuracy.