Lewis and Clark marked their trail with laxatives

240 pointsposted 5 months ago
by toomuchtodo
(offbeatoregon.com)

102 Comments

kylecazar

5 months ago

"600 giant pills that the men called 'thunder-clappers,'"

I love little reminders that people haven't changed that much over the centuries

suzzer99

5 months ago

Hunter-gatherer tribes probably had some natural laxative they called some version of "thunder-clapper" and giggled as they said it.

jug

5 months ago

Yeah. The oldest known gag is a Sumerian proverb from 1900 BC: "Something which has never occurred since time immemorial; a young woman did not fart in her husband's lap"

You also have another joke from 1600 BC: "How do you entertain a bored pharaoh? Sail a boatload of young women dressed only in fishing nets down the Nile - and urge the pharaoh to go fishing."

Barbing

5 months ago

I bet.

Source: the amount of time it takes to scroll through the Wikipedia page for “it’s all Greek to me“ (variations common across dozens of languages)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_to_me

maxbond

5 months ago

Esperanto's translation being "it's all Volapük to me" is exactly the kind of linguistic shade I was hoping to find in that article.

egypturnash

5 months ago

Lobjan: It's Ithkuil to me.

Sadly the list does not include an entry for how you would express this sentiment in Ithkuil.

(both are of course conlangs)

stavros

5 months ago

But it's the same in Danish as well? Very odd for a real language.

djmips

5 months ago

Besides the mercury compound, the Lewis and Clark contained a natural laxitive called Ipomoea purga (jalap) which was native to Mexico. Presumably the natives there used it and maybe laughed about it.

vintermann

5 months ago

Made me look up what "jalap" actually means, but apparently it's just a reference to the city it grows near, and means "sand water" or something like it.

bobmcnamara

5 months ago

In Taiwan they served me some thin mushrooms with dinner

My host: they're called see-you-tomorrow

Me: oh ok

Host: because they're indigestible

Me: awkward pause

Host: you're gonna shit!

Me to myself: oh thank God. Between the flights and insomnia it's time.

Cthulhu_

5 months ago

I bet they got drunk / high on loads of things too on the regular.

throwaway173738

5 months ago

Most likely sasparilla and root beer. Sasparilla in particular is made from Sassafrass which in its natural state contains safrole and produces a euphoric feeling when imbibed.

jvm___

5 months ago

I just got back from backwoods camping, each site has a wooden chest/thunderbox/toilet out in the open woods near the site. I'm not sure if the thunder is the heavy wooden lid closing or the noises that come from it. Some are out of sight of the campsite but ours was only 75ft away, fortunately the lid blocked your view if it was in use.

cheema33

5 months ago

I could be wrong, but I don't think that is the thunder the "thunder clappers" was named after.

anon7725

5 months ago

Travelling thousands of miles overland, in constant fear of ambush from a fearsome plains tribe war party, alternating between intense constipation and explosive diarrhea - bet they didn't put all that on the brochure when they were signing folks up to paddle the canoes.

kcplate

5 months ago

No, but didn’t need to. Pretty sure frontier people knew exactly what life in the wild would entail.

throwaway173738

5 months ago

These guys were members of the US Army, so that too.

anonu

5 months ago

> THESE PILLS WERE the pride and joy of Dr. Benjamin Rush, one of the Founding Fathers and a signer of the Declaration of Independence.

Later, a descendent of Dr Rush would go down in infamy for a foolhardy escapade to the Titanic in a carbon-fiber submersible called Titan.

> Dr. Rush’s style of “heroic medicine” had caused his star to fall quite a bit by this time — especially after the Philadelphia yellow fever epidemic of 1793, when his patients died at a noticeably higher rate than untreated sufferers.

Seems familiar...

cco

5 months ago

The head of our health and services department is not so far off Dr Rush's opinions on how human health works.

250 years after Dr Rush and somehow the head doctor in our country believes in the miasma theory of disease, only marginally more modern (still ancient Greek).

n4r9

5 months ago

Oh my Lord, you're right: https://arstechnica.com/health/2025/04/rfk-jr-s-anti-vaccine...

tim333

5 months ago

Interesting from that article that he as diagnosed with mercury poisoning, famous for making people a bit mad, hence the mad hatter in Alice in Wonderland as hatters in the day used mercury.

pstuart

5 months ago

And a parasitic brain worm to boot.

antonvs

5 months ago

> The section is titled "Miasma vs. Germ Theory," in the chapter "The White Man's Burden" [in his book attacking Fauci, titled "The Real Anthony Fauci"]

RFK Jr. seems to be trying to answer the question, how misguided can one man be?

goodluckchuck

5 months ago

The article defeats itself by acknowledging that he uses the term in a different sense… which doesn’t deny the existence or effect of germs, but focuses on the fact that for example many of the worst effects from COVID-19 were in obese people. His point is we have 364 days a year to address obesity, but - in practice - the medical community waits until the last day and tries to develop a vaccine that will allow us to stay overweight and just kill the germ. He’s saying we miss the forest for the trees when we forget to focus on the underlying health of our bodies. Of course they wanted to write a hit piece… and what he’s saying isn’t actually controversial.

tim333

5 months ago

Yeah. Here's the section for those interested https://justpaste.it/k4rqx

He uses the terms in a muddled way rather than disputing germs existence. Eg:

>Miasma exponents posit that disease occurs where a weakened immune system provides germs an enfeebled target to exploit.

010101010101

5 months ago

> When a starving African child succumbs to measles, the miasmist attributes the death to malnutrition; germ theory proponents (a.k.a. virologists) blame the virus. This is in the second paragraph and is exactly what tfa represented. It also argues directly against the idea that “a weakened immune system provides germs an enfeebled target to exploit” using measles deaths in otherwise healthy yet unvaccinated American children as an example. This is only a “hit piece” in that it’s blatantly critical of RFK Jr. and his ideas - those ideas are complete garbage and deserving of ridicule, and the leader of HHS espousing them should make him a target of far more criticism than this.

smelendez

5 months ago

Doctors have tried lots of ways to treat obesity—drugs, diet and exercise recommendations, various surgeries, hypnosis, peer support groups. It’s not a problem they ignore and obviously one you can be richly rewarded for treating, as we see with the GLP-1 drugs.

It’s just difficult for many people to lose weight and keep it off.

Forgeties79

5 months ago

Yeah I feel like there’s this weird implication in the prior comment that obesity is something for a doctor to cure that they simply choose not to because of idk money or other incentives or whatever

Forgeties79

5 months ago

> His point is we have 364 days a year to address obesity, but - in practice - the medical community waits until the last day and tries to develop a vaccine that will allow us to stay overweight and just kill the germ.

Maybe I need reevaluate my interpretation here, but this reads heavily like you’re not only blaming doctors for failing to “cure” people’s obesity, but also for waiting too long to address it, instead (incorrectly) opting to treat or prevent the virus that the patient is seeing them for. Am I reading that right? Basically “doctors refuse to treat the real problem - obesity - and instead wait until the last second and (wrongly) treat the virus”?

jeltz

5 months ago

> His point is we have 364 days a year to address obesity, but - in practice - the medical community waits until the last day and tries to develop a vaccine that will allow us to stay overweight and just kill the germ.

That is a quite controversial claim and one I hope he did not make. Do you seriously mean we should not have developed a vaccine because fat people dying would have been preferrable? If we had not developed a vaccine I do not think people would have changed their habits, more overweight people would just have died.

The medical community has taken overweight very seriously and a lot of money has been put into developing weight loss drugs but it is not like CDC can magically make people eat better.

AlecSchueler

5 months ago

> Do you seriously mean we should not have developed a vaccine because fat people dying would have been preferrable?

I really have no idea how you could read that from those words? He's saying he wishes we had been more proactive in tackling obesity prior to the pandemic.

As you say, yes, they already do a lot, so it's still quite misguided, but still very far from how you were framing it.

n4r9

5 months ago

In which case he's misusing the term "miasma", oversimplifying modern medicine by labelling the entire practice as "germ theory", and presenting a false balance on the issue. And it's kinda dangerous to dog-whistle like that; vaccines have saved far more lives than simple nutrition and healthy living would be able to replace. We've seen the outcome of RFK spewing misinformation about the measles vaccine in Samoa. People suffer and die.

user

5 months ago

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user

5 months ago

[deleted]

robocat

5 months ago

We disbelieved in miasma during Covid: yet Covid turned out to be transmitted by "bad air" . . . regardless of how strongly it was argued against at the beginning of 2020.

Even wrong theories can have a kernel of truth. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Miasma_theory

vintermann

5 months ago

If we go by theories by their earliest incarnations, "germ theory" rejected that diseases could be caused by deficiency in micronutrients. "Terrain theory" arguably was the closest to the truth on those.

Also, by the standards of so-called "evidence based medicine" where we care less about the proposed mechanism a treatment works by, and more about whether it actually works, then miasma theory (or maybe it's more accurate to call it miasma practice, then?) doesn't look so bad. Florence Nightingale didn't bury horses because she believed in germ theory, she did it because they stank - and because she had developed statistical evidence that such hygiene interventions worked, whatever the mechanism. It took a long time for germ theory to get sophisticated enough that we can say it started saving more lives than sanitation (which was developed based on miasma theory).

The first incarnations of an ultimately correct theory often work worse in practice at the start.

Not that it excuses Kennedy.

n4r9

5 months ago

So what? Geocentricity can predict some observations but it's bonkers to believe in it today.

Cthulhu_

5 months ago

I guess if we're doing mental gymnastics, an airborne virus is indeed "bad air", and opening a window helps get the bad air out and wearing a mask keeps the bad air in.

If "bad air" convinced people to take measures then I'll take it as a win.

jibal

5 months ago

There were no arguments against a virus causing respiratory disease being carried airborne. There was uncertainty as to whether the disease could be contracted from surfaces.

And viruses being airborne (carried on droplets) simply isn't what miasma theory is. Actual miasma theory is wrong and has no kernel of truth ... a fine example of how correlation is not causation.

And let's get back to the point:

> somehow the head doctor in our country believes in the miasma theory of disease

The man is an extraordinarily dangerous crank who is putting the health of Americans at grave risk ... he has already killed numerous children and it will soon get much worse. Any attempt to defend him in any way is vile.

dboreham

5 months ago

> no arguments against a virus causing respiratory disease being carried airborne

In the US this was not true. Authorities strongly asserted that the virus did not have "airborne" transmission properties, despite numerous people contracting it while locked in their cruise ship cabins.

hollerith

5 months ago

This is my recollection, too. Doctors widely believed to be experts in covid would insist in interviews with the mainstream press that people needed to stay 6 feet from each other, but say nothing about the need to wear a good mask while sharing indoor air spaces with other people. (I cannot determine their motivation, but my guess is that they were probably trying to prevent a run on the N95 mask supply.)

I was successful in convincing an elderly friend that this advice was wrong and she needed to wear an N95 when inside grocery stores even if she sanitized her hands after every time she touched anything and even if she stayed 6 feet away from people. It took about 12 months for the mainstream narrative to start to say that vulnerable populations should wear N95 masks when indoors with the public.

user

5 months ago

[deleted]

pstuart

5 months ago

The mask debacle has interesting angles on why it happened: https://slate.com/technology/2021/07/noble-lies-covid-fauci-...

My take is that they fucked up but in an understandable way (rather than some evil conspiracy).

I remain convinced that Trump was against masks because it would mess up his bronzer and ruin the illusion it's intended to convey.

jibal

5 months ago

The 6 foot distancing suggestions came in March. Recommendations for face coverings for the general public were recommended by the CDC on April 2, a few days after Trump suggested scarves. Claims that there was a 12 month gap between the distancing guidelines and recommendations for N95 or other masks is ludicrous.

And if we're going to talk about Fauci's noble lies in the interests of public health, we ought to say something about the loon with a dead worm in his brain who sincerely believes, promotes, and enforces all sorts of nonsense that is going to result in a lot of illness and death.

arcticfox

5 months ago

I was so confused by the "no airborne transmission" theory because it seems naive - like you'd need a lot of evidence to convince me that it wasn't the case given the fundamentals of viruses.

user

5 months ago

[deleted]

user

5 months ago

[deleted]

flanked-evergl

5 months ago

[flagged]

ffsm8

5 months ago

The vaccine wasn't even close to 99% effective nor is any medication 100% safe, and neither was this vaccine. It had severe side effects in a lot of people.

This kind of messaging is a large part of the problem, because it's trivially verify-able to be a lie, muddying the waters of wherever it should be used.

jibal

5 months ago

> It had severe side effects in a lot of people.

False. The only way to reach that conclusion is by misusing/misinterpreting the VAERS data.

jibal

5 months ago

P.S.

> This kind of messaging is a large part of the problem, because it's trivially verify-able to be a lie, muddying the waters of wherever it should be used.

How ironic.

I'm not going to respond directly to and get into an argument with someone who accuses me of bad faith, but I offer this from ChatGPT (these statements are readily verifiable):

Most side effects were mild and short-lived (injection site pain, fatigue, headache, fever).

Severe side effects were very rare — things like myocarditis (mostly in young men, usually mild and treatable), Guillain–Barré syndrome, or blood clotting events with adenovirus vaccines.

Surveillance data (VAERS, V-Safe, EMA, etc.) show that the incidence of these severe effects was in the range of a few per hundred thousand to a few per million doses — not “a lot of people.”

By contrast, COVID-19 infection itself caused severe illness in many more people, and even increased the baseline risks of myocarditis and clotting much more than vaccines did.

So the corrected takeaway:

Saying vaccines caused severe side effects “in a lot of people” is inaccurate.

The reality is that severe vaccine side effects were rare but carefully monitored, and the risk/benefit balance strongly favored vaccination.

ffsm8

5 months ago

I'm not sure how to take your statement seriously.

Do you not consider being bed ridden for months while suffering from symptoms similar to long covid severe?

Or did you interpret my "a lot of people" as "a high percentage of people getting the vaccine"? Because I agree it wasn't a high percentage, but still _a lot of people_ nonetheless.

If neither applies, I struggle to understand how you can make that claim in good faith.

wizzwizz4

5 months ago

I wouldn't say "a lot of people". See https://nap.nationalacademies.org/resource/27746/interactive...: only a few conditions, such as Myocarditis, are linked to the mRNA vaccines. I'd be way better off taking even the dodgiest vaccine (Oxford–AstraZeneca, which is no longer in production) than no vaccine, if exposed to actual COVID-19: the reduction in COVID-19 severity would be well worth it in terms of health outcomes (let alone the herd immunity consequences).

Sardtok

5 months ago

There's this thing called sarcasm

Evidlo

5 months ago

Here is an article that actually describes the search for the mercury in the laxatives: https://www.discovermagazine.com/following-lewis-and-clarks-...

ljlolel

5 months ago

Out of the more than 600 potential locations Lewis and Clark stopped at, only one has been verified by mercury analysis: Travelers’ Rest in Lolo, Montana. We know from their journals that the Corps visited on two occasions. The first was in mid-September of 1805, after attempting to pass over the Bitterroot Mountains and being forced back by deep snow. Then they returned at the end of June and into early July of 1806, on their way back east.

dboreham

5 months ago

Finding the locations for their camps is tricky. They passed within a mile of my house and I've spent some time trying to identify the trail route and camp site. However the journals turn out to be mostly very brief, lacking sufficient detail. Also all the geographic feature names they use are different than today's, so you need a translation map for those, which in turn may be inaccurate.

neya

5 months ago

Meta: I love these 90s-2000s website aesthetic. Simple HTML, less CSS, extremely good readability, very little telemetry and data collection (in general). I wish we could go back to that era. It felt like every website was a beautiful discovery journey than just the same old bland minimalist, flat design bs every site has today with "aCcEpT cOokIeS" banners with dark patterns throughout.

/endrant

jibal

5 months ago

The site actively discourages readers by scrolling text in a semi-transparent window over an image. It's an awful aesthetic.

neya

5 months ago

It is not an iframe. It is just a background image set to the body tag. This is their actual CSS code for body:

   body {
      font: 100%/1.3 Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
      background-color: #666;
      background-image: url("https://offbeatoregon.com/assets-2010/1012b_gorge-highway-crown-point/crown-point-1800px.jpg");
      background-repeat: no-repeat;
      background-position: center top;
      background-attachment: fixed;
      margin: 0;
      padding: 0;
      color: #222;
   }
I can understand it may not be everyone's cup of tea, though.

nextzck

5 months ago

The iOS reader view is spectacular. Easy to read source code makes for a better experience for both humans and machines :)

sublinear

5 months ago

The reader view is broken. Despite my other comment this is really bad web design. So bad that I couldn't share this article with normal people who won't put up with this. I really wanted to since the story is so interesting.

sublinear

5 months ago

Haha this page uses google adsense and the CSS is so bad that the page source has apologies in the comments. I wouldn't doubt if they didn't add the GDPR banner simply because nobody cares.

This site would otherwise be fine and not lose any charm if it just had a media query to switch to a single column layout and larger font size for screens below a certain px width (768px usually for mobile).

I don't get why it's not implemented. I didn't really have to do much in my user styles except remove the float in the "barBod" class and set the width to 100% on the table elements.

Anyway the obligatory related guideline:

> Please don't complain about tangential annoyances—e.g. article or website formats, name collisions, or back-button breakage. They're too common to be interesting.

physicsguy

5 months ago

Undaunted Courage by Stephen Ambrose is a great book about the expedition. I picked it up on a trip to the US and really enjoyed it.

One of my favourite things I didn't know was that they kept getting to new 'untouched' villages of Native Americans who would come out to trade and knew perfectly well that white people existed as they'd been visited for years by various fur traders.

ralfd

5 months ago

I read that too! Ambrose is a bit patriotic, but one can read between the lines.

- The expedition was like StarTrek/Voyager if it were a satire. A technological advanced boat with phaser weapons and futuristic medicine going boldly up the Mississippi to search for a wormhole to the Pacific and make first contact with new civilizations. Every village (and every random Indian dude) they met they presented their shiny uniforms and gave long-winded speeches (which were badly translated by Neelix/a good-for-nothing French trapper) about how they should ally with idealistic Starfleet (United States) instead of the evil Romulans and Ferengi (British and French). The Indians politely heard the speeches, than sat stoically in silence for a while during which they wondered how clueless from One to a thousand L&C were, and then asked for guns, alcohol and tobacco as gifts.

- Lewis & Clark give instead out medals of the Great Father Thomas Jefferson and funny hats left and right to make diplomacy with “chiefs”. Often the guy is just some hunter in the wilderness or some dudes being left in the village, I wonder how many big men and new hierarchies L&C created by randomly giving out a cool hat. Anyway the Indians politely take the gifted hat and then ask for guns, alcohol and tobacco.

- Every village they visit they ask that the tribe shouldn’t war against other tribes anymore as the US is strong enough to protect everlasting peace. Sometimes a village made the mistake to believe them and was promptly raided by the opportunistic warriors of a neighboring tribe.

- The L&C crew fucked more Indian women than Kirk kissed green girls from Orion. Of course women like exotic men in shiny uniforms giving expensive gifts, but often it was the men who brought their squaws without jealousy, because the advanced “medicine magic” must surely rub off through sex.

- The first contact between Starfleet and the Klingons (Prairie Sioux) was friendly but a big culture clash! The Americans polished their uniforms extra shiny and marched in formation and the Sioux one-upped them with their feather regalia and drum dancing. The Sioux proudly showed of the many slaves they just had raided in a war, look how mighty warriors we are! tlhIngan maH taHja!, and Lewis&Clark meekly suggested that the war captives look quite wretched, it would be christian to release at least the poor women and children?, and the Sioux are “Wtf, why? What is wrong with you Earthlings?”

- The Indian men treat their women shockingly bad. I guess I expected the “noble savage” from the westerns movies of my childhood, a wise hero who is in tune with nature and Gaia-feminism. No, the Prairie is a brutal Mad Max patriarchy! One time L&C (who are Virginia gentlemen) call the Indians out why they make their squaws do all the work and their excuse is that they are warriors who always have to be on guard and keep their hands free in case enemy tribes are attacking right now. Yeah, sure…

Edit: It seems I cant decide if I tell a story plot points in past (it is 200 year old history) or present tense (I remember it like a movie).

lazystar

5 months ago

great read, thanks!

> No, the Prairie is a brutal Mad Max patriarchy

this is the hard truth about tribal societies - a peaceful tribe is rare because they're at risk of being wiped out in a single day by an experienced warfaring tribe. I wish our schools taught the truth, rather than dancing around it and showing those optimistic "Dances with wolves" type films that glorify the tribal lifestyle.

cbdevidal

5 months ago

I wonder if they did eat some plants, but just didn’t get enough fiber? I eat no fiber (strict carnivore) but have no problem with regular bowel movements.

hedgehog

5 months ago

They may not have understood the vegetation well enough, and stuck to meat out of caution. Apparently when they got close to the west coast they tried eating camas and got very ill the first time because they didn't prepare it properly. Lots of ways to go wrong when you are in an unfamiliar area (see also: death camas).

jeffwass

5 months ago

I’m curious to know what your diet is like. Eg, if you are only eating meat, do you eat more bones and sinews than the usual omnivore to get enough “roughage” for digestion?

Eg, birds at a falconry can’t be fed just the usual bird “meat”, they need to have the skin and feathers attached which is essential for their digestive tract.

cbdevidal

5 months ago

No bones, unless I miss one in the can of salmon. Mostly just threeish pounds of beef every day. Just passed five years. Not tempted to cheat because I’m stuffed all the time lol. Got inspired from Jordan Peterson’s daughter. A dear friend told me about it and I thought why not give it a try. Five years later, still going.

messe

5 months ago

Why the strict carnivore diet? That is, if you don't mind me asking.

cbdevidal

5 months ago

Health reasons. I lost 50 pounds, and no more career-threatening shoulder pain.

Weirdest side effect: Mosquito bites no longer itch

rsynnott

5 months ago

They're a cat.

hinkley

5 months ago

You’ve never seen cats near a house plant?

rsynnott

5 months ago

Cats will practice herbivorism strictly only when it comes with an opportunity to annoy a human.

hinkley

5 months ago

Heh. Technically not true, but practically yes.

If I recall, they can handle about 5% veg in their diet.

The funny thing is that wheat grass at the supermarket is cheaper, larger, and in better shape than the “cat grass” as the pet store and it’s the same stuff.

shermantanktop

5 months ago

Iirc from “Undaunted Courage,” a daily diet consisted of 10 pounds of bear meat, for men who were burning thousands of extra calories a day.

sandspar

5 months ago

From that description, undaunted courage sounds like an apt title.

b112

5 months ago

I think such a diet just means you need to drink more water than your body expects. Meat digestion seems to take more water.

hereme888

5 months ago

This article just shows up on the front page of HN as I drink senna tea... perfect.

gadders

5 months ago

Interesting. Just reading the Lonesome Dove series of books, and the cowboys often seem to have the opposite problem after drinking from alkaline rivers, puddles etc.

owenversteeg

5 months ago

From the image linked for the later "milder recipe", there was 0.12g mercuric chloride per dose. The article says that one dose during the expedition was 10 grains (0.6g) of Calomel. This seems like a fairly small amount of mercury to try to find over 200 years later.

bradley13

5 months ago

File under: Things I didn't really want to know. An interesting read nonetheless...

judge123

5 months ago

I'm dying laughing. Imagine Lewis and Clark, thinking they're forging this epic, heroic legacy for the ages... and their most permanent, scientifically-proven trail is literally toxic poop. History has a WILD sense of humor.

Cthulhu_

5 months ago

I do wonder if they went in there thinking they're "forging this epic, heroic legacy for the ages", or if that was hindsight / US historians drumming up the story for the history books.

If they shat themselves to death halfway, would they have been remembered as much?

ivanbalepin

5 months ago

> the men (and woman) of the party probably weren’t thinking much about their place in history

that's like the first sentence

loa_in_

5 months ago

Bother sides of one brown coin. Or a brown multifaceted die.

cowLamp

5 months ago

mystery biscuitssss ohhhh yeah