The Reason American Socialists Don't Win

13 pointsposted 5 days ago
by nabla9
(theatlantic.com)

29 Comments

billy99k

5 days ago

If he wins NY, I'm interested to see how fast NY turns into Detroit. It will be a great time to swoop in and buy up the abandoned/cheap housing that will be the result.

I saw people interviewed on the street on why they will vote for him. "Lower taxes" was one of the reasons. LOL.

hshdhdhj4444

5 days ago

Which policy that Mamdani is promising would lead NYC to the path of becoming Detroit?

wredcoll

5 days ago

Imagine being this gleeful over the idea that people might get hurt trying to improve society.

gruez

4 days ago

Is that any different than people cheering over how trump voters are getting fucked over by tariffs?

wredcoll

4 days ago

The short answer is: No.

The long answer is that there's some nuance between hoping something will happen and being morbidly amused when it does happen. In other words, you could be be pretty sure trump policies will fuck over most of the people who voted for him, but still hope that nobody actually gets hurt.

AngryData

4 days ago

What? Do you think Detroit was destroyed by socialism or something? What policies do you take issue with?

Der_Einzige

5 days ago

This is the reason why the DSA is clearly a front for three letter agencies, not evidence that socialists can’t win.

Bernie calls himself a democratic socialist even if he won’t join the DSA

_rm

5 days ago

I think there's something deeply fascinating about socialism, specifically in its persistence of support despite its horrendous, immoral, and corrupt outcomes.

I ponder if it's because, at a fundamental level, humans actually prefer shitness. Like it's anxiety-removing. That having a moment of "triumph of the people", and enjoying the ease of delusionally believing in some leader who says he's going to help us, followed by decades of stagnation (that was completely option but only occasionally meaningfully reversed, e.g. Argentina recently), is actually preferred by people, because above all else, they can handle having less resources, but they cannot stomach the pain of responsibility.

Hence why society actually tends to proceed due to powerful and often disliked unelected leaders, e.g. business tycoons, who can push things ahead despite this tendency.

wredcoll

5 days ago

> Hence why society actually tends to proceed due to powerful and often disliked unelected leaders, e.g. business tycoons, who can push things ahead despite this tendency.

You had me up until this paragraph. Are you trying to write ayn rand fan fiction?

Also, keep in mind that when americans say "socialism" they mean "government funded infrastructure projects", it sounds like you weren't aware of this.

_rm

5 days ago

Would say a Bernie Sanders style "free university, free healthcare" program be considered an infrastructure project in the US?

And yes, society only moves forward due to a small number of leaders. In the past this has been more focused on state leaders and conquest, but in the modern day more so industrialists and technologists. It's not controversial that the vast majority of people just want to be provided a comfortable lot in life by others.

wredcoll

4 days ago

Yes, free university and free healthcare are infrastructure. We already have free highschools after all. What's the moral difference between the government building a road that I get to drive on "for free" and building a hospital I get to go to "for free"?

> It's not controversial that the vast majority of people just want to be provided a comfortable lot in life by others.

It's not controversial in the same way that saying the earth is flat isn't controversial, it's just wrong.

Society "moves forward" because every day that passes there are literally billions of humans working to build/harvest/grow/research/construct/etc different things.

Nobody actually believes e.g. elon musk is out there putting rocketships together, right?

President kennedy said "lets go to the moon" then he went back to the white house to attend state dinners and sleep with whoever came near. Ten thousand nasa employees went to work every day and actually built rocketships.

(The generic argument here is something like "well elon musk gave them money to build rocketships" except then you have to ask where musk got the money to give to other people in the first place and the argument rapidly breaks down)

xorcist

3 days ago

Yet free military, completely socialized and completely state funded, is completely unproblematic. It's even in such high organizational regard that it is usually considered a merit to have made a career there, even in the private sector.

That should teach us that we can't look at soeciety from some sort of logical principles. It bears all the markings of sociologically created in-groups, or as the kids would put it, "identity politics". It doesn't have to make sense.

6510

4 days ago

> society only moves forward due to a small number of leaders

LOL

edit:

In English it some how makes sense to use a word like "progress" without defining whereto. It isn't very sophisticated.

quantified

5 days ago

People don't prefer shitness. Why do you think so? "Democratic Socialists" were hollow twistings of word. Just like "Christian" is for Maga, all hail Jesus and no charity or grace. Ask the Nordics about socialism.

wkat4242

5 days ago

Umm socialism works pretty great in most of Europe where it's a much nicer place to live than the US.

All the talk of immorality and corruption is justified when aimed at Soviet style communism. But that's not the only way. When a balance is sought however it works really great. Much better than the unlimited capitalism as in the US. My boss recently asked me if I wouldn't move to the US lol. I wouldn't think about it. What I care about in life is not having the ability to make unlimited amounts of money but having safety, both on the street and in terms of a social and healthcare safety net. We have all this.

We can also call in sick when we're actually sick (no limit to 'sick days'). Can't be fired at will, we get a month of holidays per years plus extras, and our cities are a nicer place to live in with fewer cars and better transport.

This kind of left wing doesn't even exist in the US (even Bernie is more right wing than us). So I can imagine Americans thinking that the only socialism is the way the USSR did things.

I don't really understand how people think the system works so great when so many Americans struggle to pay rent, healthcare bills, student loans etc. I don't pay out of pocket for healthcare at all here. I just gave a government card that allows me treatment when I need it.

_rm

5 days ago

Out of interest, what do you believe your future looks like? Also do you own anything?

wkat4242

4 days ago

My future? More like this. And green and healthy. The city has become much greener over the last years. Socialist places tend to value the environment more.

And yes of course I own things. I don't own a car because I don't want one, I hate driving. And I don't have to because public transport is so great and cheap (22€ per month for an unlimited pass). That won't even buy half a tank of fuel.

I don't own a flat but I could, I'm looking for the right one. I'm just fussy. And I own all my stuff, I hate renting or leasing stuff. In fact the dogma "You will own nothing and you will be happy" comes from the WEF which is basically all the big capitalist billionaires thrown in one room.

It's funny how Americans think socialism is such a hellscape. And then come to Spain and love it. Spain is very socialist even by European standards.

Like I said: socialism, at least as we know it here isn't really communism. It's much more of a balance.

_rm

4 days ago

They come to Spain and love it because they bring their own money, they spend that in Spain, and Spain supplies the chill culture and weather and costs of living (much like Thailand).

I appreciate your sentiment and I don't think it comes from a bad place. I also hate driving, it's an unpleasant experience in total. But I also think you're young. Please, just for yourself and those around you, keep a keen and dispassionately analytical eye to the surroundings of all these things and the future.

wkat4242

4 days ago

But what's so bad about the future? I don't really understand. Spain has been very socialist ever since the fall of fascism in the 70s. Now that was bad. Things have only improved a lot since.

We in Spain live totally fine too :) I have more than enough money to buy what I need. We always go for lunch in a restaurant when I'm at the office, it's not like we don't have two pennies to rub together. All the restaurants have cheap lunch menus. Everyone goes for lunch there in Spain, so much so that we don't even have a real canteen in the office.

And no I'm absolutely not young lol, I'm 50+. I've also lived in many countries (4 in total) including ones with much higher wages. And much more capitalist ones like Australia. But Spain is by far my favourite. I think the country is doing great and the system works really well. I would definitely not want to live in the US. Even if I could make 3 or 4 times as much money there. Which, realistically, is probably how much more I'd make in silicon valley (including stock bonus, which tbh I don't want, I prefer real money)

In fact, a FAANG offered me a job there just before the pandemic. But looking into the cost of living around their fancy office I'd still have had to live tens of miles away from the office in some dopey town (San Francisco wasn't possible either financially) and they wanted in-office presence every day. Here I just take a 15 minute subway ride. I'm supposed to be at the office regularly but I don't actually bother to go there often (another thing about Spain, rules generally aren't enforced very much). Anyway, I declined due to quality of life. I love living in a big city that is also quite compact. And have no worries. I'm not very ambitious, I just want to enjoy my life and work is but a means to that.

Money really isn't everything. Especially as you get older, having good and free (well, tax-paid) healthcare is a huge plus. Same with all the other benefits like job security, state pensions. In the US I'd have to cover all that myself, be dependent on my employer for healthcare plans and have a lot less rights as an employee. Another thing that's important because an employer can easily consider you 'too old' and it's very hard to find something else at my age.

One of my friends has been on a (genuine and pretty bad) long-term sick leave of over a year and has had no worries due to the illness benefit. This kind of worry-free life matters a lot. It's bad enough when you get a serious illness, having to worry about being able to live is not something you'd wish on top of that. I don't mind a large portion of my taxes going to such things, because it means it's there for me too if I ever need it.

The one exception is the housing market which is a bit crazy here (but nowhere as crazy as in the US). But the problem is not the socialism, it's that it's too much of a free market. They are bringing in more restrictions like a rent price limitation and longer mandatory contract terms. And banning AirBnBs all over the city so we don't have to compete with tourists paying 100-200 euro a night anymore. They never should have allowed those in the first place, but anyway...

But the idea that the American model is the only one that could work is just not true. If your goal is to get lucky and become a millionaire/billionaire and be one of that sweet 0.001%, then yeah, sure. For the rest of us it works way better like this.

Also, America is tearing itself apart right now. Here things are mellow, as LGBTIQ+ we are respected and welcomed, rather than be considered a 'political ideology'.

_rm

4 days ago

Sound like you're doing alright then. Spare a thought for the young then, don't be all "I've had mine thanks", 25% unemployment for them in socialist-paradise Spain. I don't envy them or what that does to a person at all, unless it's just because their boomer parents/grandparents are being generous.

wkat4242

4 days ago

Sorry that's not a correct figure. That 25% is only in Melilla. Which is basically an small town-exclave in Morocco (a bit like Gibraltar which is a British exclave in Spain). With a population of only 86.000. Same with Ceuta (21% unemployment). These are very isolated towns because they are in the middle of Morocco (and don't have very good relations with their surrounding country).

Overall it's about 10,29% (first half of 2025) with only around 8% in highly industrialised communities like Catalonia. Which includes people with disabilities. Which is also around 8% in fact, but some of those people are only partially disabled and do work. It's really not bad. The southern areas have higher unemployment but this is because their economy is very seasonal and tourism/farming driven.

Things can still be improved but it's not bad at all.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_in_Spain

Many of my friends are young and they don't have issues or worries about their future. Though several just got laid off because Meta suddenly closed their moderation office (after Trump decided that moderation was only "woke" and could be done without, and Zuckerberg couldn't wait to follow on).

It's also important to note that Spain has a very high number of Latin American immigrants, for whom it is a bridge into Europe (Spain has an easy path to citizenship for its former colonies). for them it's however harder to find a job because their qualifications are often not recognised or quite as valued by companies, especially large multinationals. It generally takes some years of upskilling locally. It's one of the reasons the unemployment is higher. They are however very welcome <3 unlike latin american immigrants in the US.

_rm

4 days ago

Are you afraid of learning the figure I describe, wkat? Here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_unemployment_in_Spain

Truth is, your generation isn't going to be looked on favourably in the future (already now actually, but I think that's just a start). You've all been too self-centered.

wkat4242

4 days ago

That is indeed high, I wonder why. I doubt the welfare system is the cause though. Most of the countries in Europe have pretty socialist tendencies. Making it a heartless society like the US certainly isn't the solution.

I think self centered is true but more in terms of the environment, the younger generation will feel the effects of climate change much worse. Whereas the boomer generation still pretends nothing is going on. Another reason I'm glad not to have a car and not consume too much. I don't even have aircon.

AngryData

4 days ago

I would be interested in hearing what you think socialism means in practice or policy, because your description of the result perfectly matches the capitalist economy we are living in right now.

_rm

4 days ago

I think the problem with you premise is calling what you're living in a capitalist economy. You live in a mixed economy. I recommend you read the Communist Manifesto and check which items on its planned list could be reasonably claimed as actually having been done in the society you live in.

My conceptualisation of socialism is the property rights concept as presented by actual monkeys. He who possesses possesses, and he who does not is to dispossess the latter of such if his force allows. In the modern era, this is: he who can, by sufficient narcissism and IQ, explain why other's fruits of their labor and risk taking is actually "theft", such that he can indirectly participate in a competing form of (true) theft himself.

AngryData

4 days ago

I have read it, im not sure what your point is? The workers in the US do not own the means of production, labor rights are exceedingly poor compared to any peer countries, and it is even illegal to strike in solidarity with other workers unions. There are also many restrictions on how unions can be formed and utilized, some industries have to get government approval for a strike, our legal system is heavily biased towards capital, and our political system is largely based on who can raise the most capital for elections or bribe the most politicians for favors.

Im completely missing where average workers have significant control in either economic or political decisions that would make it socialist or communist or anything other than capitalist controlled.

_rm

4 days ago

I'm interested in the following answer from you: why is it that there is then such high economic immigration into the US to the extent that people will take trips through the Darien gap at great personal risk and expense, often from Latin American socialist paradises like Venezuela, to illegally enter the US to subject themselves to this labor horror you describe?

Is it possible what you parrot is an ideology taught to you by twisted university dwelling goblins for their own benefit, to taking advantage of an us/them anger that actually has ultimately stemmed from childhood issues, rather than something you've reasoned yourself from first principles?

AngryData

4 days ago

I fail to see what your question has to do with the topic at hand or anything I said. Poor labor rights is a fact regardless of the value of the US dollar on the world market. The US does not represent a socialist economic system in any significant way. People also go through great lengths to get into the Chinese market, or escape any number of other poor economies across the globe. That doesn't make the places they are going automatically good or right or socialist or capitalist.