JumpCrisscross
17 hours ago
Healthcare, especially the patient-facing part, isn’t like other services.
If we want private ownership of this infrastructure it has to look more like either a utility, where the state has a direct say in service changes and pricing, or a partnership, where unlimited liability flows through to the owners. I’m a fan of the latter.
Limited liability was an amazing invention. But it’s not appropriate for healthcare. Turn these services into partnerships and you’ll see the give-a-shit factor quintuple overnight. (You’ll also probably see a reduction in leverage.)
SoftTalker
17 hours ago
That would have to come with some liability reform however. Injury lawyers are another cancer on society along with many practices of Private Equity.
When you take care of sick or disabled people, bad outcomes, even death, can come along with that. Nobody in their right mind is going to form a health care partnership with unlimited personal exposure to liability unless that is strictly limited to actual losses in cases of proven negligence.
alistairSH
16 hours ago
About half the states already have caps on damages. [1]
1 - https://www.millerandzois.com/medical-malpractice/maryland-m...
phil21
11 hours ago
Caps aren’t super interesting overall. It’s the low bar it takes to sue and how expensive it is to litigate bullshit to marginal cases vs. settlements.
infecto
15 hours ago
This is the hard part imo. Thinking about the argument for a government run single payer system, someone is still having to make a calculation on appropriate treatment. It’s what happens at the NHS, perhaps a single payer can do it more efficiently and no I am not defending the American system but I do think there are a lot of hard to answer questions.
tartuffe78
15 hours ago
The American government hasn’t had a good track record for solving difficult problems in my life time.
nitwit005
13 hours ago
Or, you never give them credit when they improve things. The most difficult problems aren't fully fixable. The improvements people make often go unnoticed.
Crime rates have fallen. Rather than giving anyone credit, people seem more anxious and angry than ever.
phil21
11 hours ago
Murder may be down, but every other “minor” visible crime is up. Reporting it is useless.
Just this week about a dozen contractor vans in the neighborhood were broken into (windows smashed) by a professional crew caught on camera looking for valuables to steal. Zero of those contractors reported it since they know it’s a pointless waste of time with the local police department. Not even worth reporting to insurance since rates will more than make up for the claim in a short period of time and they expect it to happen a few times a year. The stats will report a perfect week of zero property crime.
This is a neighborhood where the cheapest property is over seven figures.
Shoplifting is effectively legalized these days. No one is enabled to stop it like we did 30 years ago when I worked a retail job. And no one wants to talk about the corrosive effect this has on society via second and third order effects. Just the liability fairy and “don’t get paid enough to deal with that”. Again, only a small percentage of such theft is ever reported these days when before it was a policy to detain and call the police for booking every single time you caught someone in the act.
So sure, violent crime is down. Misdemeanors are effectively legal where I’m at. Traffic laws more or less no longer exist on top of it all. Armed carjackings went from basically unheard of to a weekly occurrence in my neighborhood.
But all the stats state otherwise, other than perhaps the carjacking one.
It’s also a large reason folks are losing faith with institutions and experts. When the stats and “studies” match absolutely no one’s lived experience people eventually start to question things for good reason. Only so many times you can be told by wealthy suburbanites that crime is down until you tune them out.
We are rapidly moving from a high trust society to a low trust one and I think many people are being caught flat footed in the new reality.
That said, I don’t believe it’s really a government problem. It’s societal one.
nitwit005
10 hours ago
Aside from actual reports of crimes, the government does surveys asking people what crimes they've been a victim of. Those numbers are also down: https://ncvs.bjs.ojp.gov/quick-graphics#quickgraphicstop
SoftTalker
7 hours ago
My local supermarket has an armed guard (off duty cop) with a Kevlar vest, I’m pretty sure nobody is walking out of there with unpaid groceries.
Der_Einzige
10 hours ago
This is all true, but the fact that people continue to pay 2 million, 3 million to live in these places shows that quality of life is objectively high even if trust in society is low.
Hell, I’d wager that low trust societies are more free. That’s why you see the lowest trust and the stuff you describe in the hippy liberal PNW. Highest trust society on earth, Singapore, has no real freedom of speech, of protest, of consumption, etc
I’ll take homeless, needles, and poorly reported property crime so I can have legal weed and mushrooms, and the best outdoors/weather in the world, plenty of tech jobs, and clean air and water, and almost zero fear of the cops, and low violent crime (very few homeless are armed).
Republicans used to love the word “federalism”. Don't tread on our liberal utopia, unironically.
giardini
5 hours ago
"Crime rates have fallen."
Some murder rates have presumably fallen. But I would be wary of even that b/c I've seen the lengths that bureaucrats(police) and politicians(civilians) will go to alter statistics.
"Trust but verify." - Russian proverb.
nitwit005
3 hours ago
You could try to find another source instead of simply deciding the correct answer on your own.
slg
15 hours ago
This has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. When roughly half the political power in this country believes that government can only hurt, it makes it nearly impossible for the government to actually help.
user
15 hours ago
lokar
17 hours ago
I agree, there should be no limited liability for for-profit healthcare organizations.
And non-profit health care orgs should have strict regulation, and the state should appoint some of the members of the board.
JumpCrisscross
17 hours ago
> there should be no limited liability for for-profit healthcare organizations
Any. If you ringfence it to for-profit companies you'll just wind up with non-profits either siphoning profits away or exorbitantly compensating their leadership.
lokar
16 hours ago
That’s why all high revenue non-profits should have some board seats appointed by the state, and state audits, etc.
JumpCrisscross
16 hours ago
> all high revenue non-profits should have some board seats appointed by the state, and state audits, etc.
Why would you want to politicise every non-profit like this?
lokar
15 hours ago
It can be done fairly neutrally
In CA, put a professor of medicine and one from a mgmt school from the UC system on the boards of the to 10 medical systems. Let the regents pick the person, etc
BrenBarn
13 hours ago
Just hard-cap compensation.
whimsicalism
17 hours ago
given the absolutely nutso judgements juries award in the US, nobody would open a practice if this were true
lokar
16 hours ago
They do it every day. Many (most?) doctors work in partnerships. And they have insurance.
whimsicalism
16 hours ago
No, only a small proportion (less than a quarter) work in partnerships and a large driver of the decrease is the American liability environment. But sure, doctors in some specialties choose to take the gamble that the liability doesn’t exceed their insurance limits. But such a gamble would be extremely risky for a system or hospital employing hundreds of caregivers.
lokar
16 hours ago
My goal is to force the large systems into being non-profit
giardini
5 hours ago
My goal is to eliminate all non-profits. That is, I want them taxed!
whimsicalism
16 hours ago
most large providers already are, it is no panacea. imposing further costs on the provisioning of care only means less care in the equilibrium
Der_Einzige
10 hours ago
1. Force Americans to take GLP-1s en mass to get objective health care costs down (most are cus we are fat as fuck)
2. Destroy the APA and reform medical training in america. Doctors shortages are primarily the fault of professional organizations. Doctors in the USA are massively overpaid compared to the rest of the world. Use US power to force the free world to imitate us so that capital has nowhere else to fly to and is forced to stay here.
3. Do something to basically destroy scam wastes of medical dollars and insurance dollars like homeopathy, naturopathic, etc
It won’t fix everything, but it’ll do a lot to help.
lotsofpulp
15 hours ago
I can’t even name a single large for profit system other than HCA.
bko
16 hours ago
> Limited liability was an amazing invention. But it’s not appropriate for healthcare.
If you want to make these services more expensive and produce shortages, this is how you would do it. Why would anyone invest or want to work in these fields?
I have an unpopular take on PE taking over these small businesses after working with a few small businesses in the home improvement space. The fact is they are incredibly inefficient. You can't even get these guys to answer a phone. They bill you by mail weeks after and you call them to give them a credit card over the phone after you received your bill. Even getting estimates could take months. The service is not consistent. Depending on who they send, they could be completely clueless. You don't know until you finally stumble across someone competent that tells you how bad the last guy was.
Pricing is all over the places. You can get two quotes that are 50% different. So there is little discovery. These are only the obvious external inefficiencies. I couldn't imagine how bad it is operationally.
The bar is so low, which is prob why it's interesting for a PE firm. There is so much money being left on the table. That's why I generally prefer large chains for things like auto. You know the pricing. They are efficient and won't rip your face off for the most part. So I welcome more professionalism and corporate ownership if this means a better, more consistent level of service for me. I get there are downsides but right now I have enough trouble getting a hold of any of these guys that I just don't care.
azinman2
16 hours ago
You’re making the assumption (from what I understand) that most of the inefficiency is in the administration side. I’m sure there is, but it’s also woefully complicated with insurance, laws, parties who may or may not be financially and cognitively sound, etc.
But let’s say you can make the administration side way more efficient. How much did that save? 20%? That’s not the kinds of returns being sought. So where does the 2x, 3x, or more returns expected come from? Cutting services.
nickff
15 hours ago
I think you hit the nail on the head when you mention the complexities of the business being the cause for the inefficiencies. Private Equity has figured out that they can buy into businesses with high legal, regulatory, and 'friction'-related barriers to entries, and squeeze the clients (either by increasing prices or decreasing service level/quality). The solution would be to make entry into these businesses easier by reducing legal and regulatory barriers, but that seems vanishingly unlikely.
bko
12 hours ago
Forget efficiency. I want someone to pick up my phone call and pay my bill online. These guys leave a ton of money on the table. They can also better compete when the other guys are clowns
ethanwillis
11 hours ago
If it's so much money being left on the table, have you thought about picking some of it up?
What would that look like?
triceratops
16 hours ago
> Why would anyone invest or want to work in these fields?
That's how individual doctor's practices already work. If someone doesn't want to take liability for patient outcomes, good riddance.
next_xibalba
15 hours ago
I would think unlimited liability would only work to increase prices as it would mean providers would become more laden with lawyers, even more bureaucratized and slow (spend most of your time documenting everything so we don't lose lawsuits), etc.
Those already seems like drivers of cost in hospitals. I have several family members who work in healthcare who are just miserable because so much of their time is consumed by things that are not helping and healing patients (documentation, etc.)
mindslight
15 hours ago
I don't understand how either of your proposed angles of reform are supposed to work.
These are services being paid by the state, so I would think the state already has direct say in pricing? Which is why the business becomes a march to the bottom in provided services, to increase margins by decreasing expenses since they can't increase prices.
I didn't see any mention of bankruptcy in the article, so I don't see what limited liability has to do here. If anything it seems like the entities are too well capitalized, in that they can fight with individual states and pay off whatever meager fines might result. Also as far as I understand the medical industry, the individual doctors/nurses signing off on the care being given are still directly liable (modulo professional insurance policies). They just have reams of paperwork saying the care was correct from their perspective, despite what the low level caregivers might be doing outside of the paperwork.
I personally think what limited liability entities have developed into has become a scourge in general, as they end up being considered to have all the rights and freedoms of personally-liable natural persons. Getting a government granted liability shield should mean submitting to significantly more regulation to preclude engaging in well known patterns of constructive negligence. The vaunted fiercely-independent "man in the arena" can always actually get into the arena if they want their business to partake of the full natural rights afforded to natural persons...
And maybe you're just coming from a similar feeling of wanting those ultimately in charge to also be directly responsible? I usually think of this in terms of corpos fighting regulation with specious justifications based on individual rights (Citizens United, corpo direction of employee speech, etc). I just don't see how adding the liability would make anything more actionable here.
anthem2025
16 hours ago
limited liability has been a disaster for the entire human race.