bix6
2 days ago
“The AI capital influx means that mega-projects no longer seem outlandishly expensive. This is good for the world!”
Is it? This whole piece just reads of mega funds and giga corps throwing ridiculous cash for pay to win. Nothing new there.
We can’t train more people? I didn’t know Universities were suddenly producing waaaay less talent and that intelligence fell off a cliff.
Things have gone parabolic! It’s giga mega VC time!! Adios early stage, we’re doing $200M Series Seed pre revenue! Mission aligned! Giga power law!
This is just M2 expansion and wealth concentration. Plus a total disregard for 99% of employees. The 1000000x engineer can just do everyone else’s job and the gigachad VCs will back them from seed to exit (who even exits anymore, just hyper scale your way to Google a la Windsurf)!
marcosdumay
2 days ago
> This is just M2 expansion and wealth concentration.
I just want to point that there's no scientific law that says those two must move together.
A government very often needs to print money, and it's important to keep in mind that there's no physical requirement that this money immediately must go to rich people. A government can decide to send it to poor people exactly just as easily as to rich. All the laws forbidding that are of the legal kind.
hammock
2 days ago
All true of course, with a clarification: even if all the newly printed money is put in the hands of the poor, the resultant inflation raises the prices of hard assets which are overwhelmingly held by the rich (fueling wealth inequality)
marcosdumay
a day ago
You can say that they fail to dilute the value of hard assets, yes. So they don't really "punish" the extra-rich. But they only inflate prices by the amount of money you print, you can't make the poor poorer by giving them money.
fc417fc802
a day ago
That depends on your metric and time frame. Purchasing parity and relative wealth could certainly be reduced beyond the immediate term.
blitzar
2 days ago
There is something immoral about a company saying "we are going to spend $100bn this year on building a LLM"
The icing on the cake is when all their competitors say "so will we".
hlynurd
2 days ago
I'm really struggling with seeing how this is immoral.
blitzar
2 days ago
10 years ago, Apple was the largest company in the world by market capitalization, its market cap was around $479.069 billion.
How have we gotten to a point in just a decade where multiple companies are dropping annual numbers that are in the realm of "the market cap of the worlds biggest companies" on these things?
Have we solved all (any of) the other problems out there already?
hlynurd
2 days ago
I'm still not seeing it. It's immoral because it's resources not spent on some particular problem you have in mind?
blitzar
2 days ago
The 10x from 400 billion to 4 trillion in a decade didnt come from 2% inflation.
It didnt come from nowhwere, or from Silicon Valleys exceptionalism - It came from changing the value of money, labour and resources. It came from everyday people, deficits and borrowing from the next 10 generations of children.
throwawayqqq11
2 days ago
Exploitation. Or cost externalization.
The public discourse is weirdly unable to adress burning problems that had been formulated almost 150 years ago. Much like the climate change topic originating in the 1970s.
user
2 days ago
hlynurd
2 days ago
Seems like this is about something other than LLMs?
blitzar
2 days ago
Of course it is, LLMSs are just the current manifestation.
You can swap "LLMs" with "pointless wars over books or dirt" if you want - same same, nothing is new.
emsign
2 days ago
It is about LLMs because it's the trillions being sunk into this bubble instead of more important issues like climate crisis and a pressing need to address the transformation of the energy sector or tackling the wealth inequality gap. These are all causing real world osues that are much bigger than beating (or rather faking to beat) some LLM benchmarks to impress investor.
UncleOxidant
a day ago
> instead of more important issues like climate crisis
It's kind of worse than that: this is actually exacerbating the climate crisis as mega tech corps like Microsoft, Google and Meta are scrambling to secure more energy to power their power-hungry LLMs.
adventured
2 days ago
What bubble? If anything it's 10x too small for the value it'll provide over the next century.
The same exact premise was proclaimed about the Internet circa 1999-2003 (boom and bust). Then the entire global economy and nearly all electronic communication was rebuilt on top of the Internet.
For the coming century AI is more important than the Internet.
discreteevent
a day ago
> the value it'll provide over the next century.
The parent mentioned inequality and energy transition. But LLMs seem to be about crud apps and influence campaigns.
There's more to value than just quantity. Quantity of what?
UncleOxidant
a day ago
That's a bold claim. Which AI? The current LLMs? Something else as yet undiscovered? It's not clear that "it's 10x too small for the value it'll provide over the next century" - there's no way to know that - the statement is an article of faith.
smohare
a day ago
[dead]
Qwertious
2 days ago
LLMs don't exist in a vacuum. Someone spends money to build LLMs, builds infrastructure that the LLMs run on, extracts training data to run the LLMs on, uses LLM for various use-cases, and makes revenue from specific LLM users.
willcipriano
2 days ago
> The 10x from 400 billion to 4 trillion in a decade didnt come from 2% inflation.
Money printing does not cause inflation equally especially if not distrubuted so.
BeFlatXIII
2 days ago
That was before pandemic inflation and rampant money printing to bolster the fake numbers.
ta1243
2 days ago
Apple market cap
Jan 2010: 174b
Jan 2020: 1400b (23% growth per year)
Today: 3200b (18% growth per year)
The S&P as a whole grew about 12% a year from 2010 to 2020, and 12.5% a year from 2020 to today
Meanwhile the median wage from 2010-2019 grew 3% a year, from 2019-2023 7% a year
Seems whatever happened in 2020 was good for workers, in that they aren't falling behind owners as much as they were.
user
2 days ago
Quarrelsome
2 days ago
they're all a bit immoral, like how Hollywood made it big by avoiding patents, how YouTube got its mammoth exit via widespread copyright infringement and now LLMs gather up the skills of people it pays nothing to and tries to sell.
However we could also argue that most things in human society are less moral than moral (e.g. cars, supermarkets, etc).
But we can also argue that dropping some hundreds of millions in VC capital is less immoral than other activities, such as holding that money in liquid assets.
* Glares at Apple cosplaying Smaug *
aaa_aaa
2 days ago
Patents and copyrigt laws are immoral.
Quarrelsome
2 days ago
however they do result in flows of capitals feeding into otherwise unfundable enterprise like R&D; science and engineering, or culture; writing, music, art. Where's the ROI if you invest millions into R&D and your competitor invests $0 and can then just reproduce your works with their logo ontop of yours? To sack off IP and copyright would significantly narrow innovation and result in many artists, scientists and engineers having their income severely suppressed if not eradicated. Instead that money would temporarily go to a bunch of hacks that do nothing but copy and chase the bottom, before vanishing into thin air as the works become entirely unprofitable.
I don't think its as simple as calling them immoral. Rather the immorality comes on them being poorly regulated. With regulated term limits on patents and copyright we create a world where an artist can create licensed product and protect themselves during the course of their career, and people are them able to riff on their works after some decades or after they pass on.
bluefirebrand
2 days ago
> I don't think its as simple as calling them immoral. Rather the immorality comes on them being poorly regulated
I think if behavior needs to be regulated by government in order to be moral, then it's immoral behavior by default
The regulation doesn't make it moral, the regulation only limits the damage by limiting how immoral you're allowed to be
Quarrelsome
a day ago
> I think if behavior needs to be regulated by government in order to be moral, then it's immoral behavior by default
Regulation is creating rules for businesses to run within. This goes back to rule of law. You can't tell a group of children to "behave" and walk away and expect good results and then call the children "bad" when they fail to behave.
Rather, you must give them systems to understand, to channel their energy, productively, in a way that matches the desires of the parent (government) and their strategies. Then you have to meaningfully punish those who intentionally break the rules in order to give those behaving the knowledge that they have chosen the good path and they'll be rewarded for it.
Free markets are not about "morality"/"immortality", its about harnessing an existing energy to make a self-sustaining system. A system a state is less good/interested at keeping going or unable to act quickly enough to move in. But part of creating that system is putting in guard rails to prevent the worst sort of crashes.
_DeadFred_
2 days ago
The regulation is what makes it worth while for people to invent/write. Patents/copyrights have been a net benefit for society with a smaller negative downside.
bluefirebrand
2 days ago
I don't see how this disagrees with what I said
Patents and copyrights don't cause people to create things
They prevent people from stealing things that other people created
The immoral behaviour being regulated is the IP theft not the IP creation
dmbche
2 days ago
Can you point to something that quantifies the positives vs the negatives?
I have a hard time arguing that it's a net positive.
_DeadFred_
a day ago
If I come up with an invention I don't have the capability/finances to bring it to market. Without patents, I have no incentive to show it to possible investors/manufacturers because they can just steal it and keep all the profits. So my idea that could have helped society dies with me. So it costs society nothing to give me protection, but society get's nothing without the protection versus efficiency, safer working conditions, better health, whatever benefit from my invention.
Without copyright it was hard to assemble high quality educational books/manuals, because they take a lot of effort with relatively little reward/return. In fact the first 'modern' copyright act in 1701ish was titled something about improving education.
Without copyright it is not worth it for authors to spend nights/weekends flushing out plot ideas for complete sharable works, so you end up with less/lower quality literature as no one can be a professional author. Which has better quality on average, published books or self published? Self published tend to be the 'passion projects' you would still have without copyright, published books tend to be what get's created when authors are compensated for their efforts. Society can't lose from copyright because without it the works would never have existed. If I say 'I'll bake a cake if you will buy a piece' and I bake a cake and sell a piece, society didn't 'lose'. If I don't bake a cake because no one would buy a piece than society was a little sadder, a little plainer that day. There is only upside, there is no downside. Anyone that would release if copyright didn't exist is still free to waive their copyright protection. So having it is the best of both worlds, those that want to release just to release can, and those that want to try and create something that can be sold can.
Without copyright there are no big budget movies, only passion projects because no one is injecting millions when the work will just be copied no sold/screened/rented.
Without copyright the world has less joy, less discussion, less contemplation, less entertainment, less education. Without patents the world has less productivity, less safety, worse health, less food, worse/much less clothing/housing, less free time. The systems in their current forms have been abused and are unfit for the original purpose but when kept to the original purpose with reasonable protection periods they are a HUGE net plus for society.
thedevilslawyer
2 days ago
We can get rid of copyright, patents, trademarks and only have a new right called branding - it allows you to name the thing you invented/created.
In the new world that's incentive for enough people to create. Let knowledge rein free.. bellowing through the lands.
SJC_Hacker
a day ago
Trademarks are branding
hammock
2 days ago
CC BY license for all?
harimau777
2 days ago
I think it's a little more nuanced than that. Certainly IP is regularly abused to try to suppress competition/innovation, own our shared culture, create artificial scarcity, etc. However, there's also a need to protect artists and other creatives from having their work scooped up and profited off of by mega corps.
thedevilslawyer
2 days ago
You're taking a nuanced view of fundamental thing and completely missing the point.
Copyright is bad like inheritance is bad. Arguing about good and bad industrialists is missing the point.
TeMPOraL
2 days ago
What about compound interest? After all, inheritance is merely letting wealth continue to compound across generations. But at first glance, the same arguments against inheritance would apply against letting a single person earn interest.
thedevilslawyer
2 days ago
Inheritance is about coming into the world unequal.
TeMPOraL
2 days ago
If that's the problem, we also need to ban society - cause one can be more prosperous than other, and it disadvantages those born into the latter.
thedevilslawyer
2 days ago
That's like your problem man. I'm not against society.
TeMPOraL
2 days ago
Only against nuance and consistency of beliefs.
pyuser583
a day ago
So is citizenship. Should we do away with that as well?
hellojesus
2 days ago
> Copyright is bad like inheritance is bad.
How is inheritance bad? Imo, estate taxes are more immoral. Why should the state be allowed a cut of my private assets? Gift taxes are also immoral. Why should I have to pay taxes for giving away assets?
Ekaros
a day ago
To me the giver paying taxes is wrong mindset. Maybe they should be collecting them. But paying taxes on earned money seems reasonable and has long history. It can be earned from work, or inheritance or gift. Actually maybe paying income tax on inheritance would be best.
fc417fc802
a day ago
The argument is that taxes were already paid when the relevant work was performed. Transfers of ownership that don't involve work (ie economic activity) shouldn't be subject to government interference.
The obvious issue is that if you don't tax gifts it becomes far too easy for people to dodge taxes (or at least much more convoluted to enforce payment).
Inheritance is much more complicated and controversial. There's an argument to be made that it results in social ills if left unchecked, an argument that estate taxes fail rather spectacularly to address those ills, and an argument that the ills tend to be self righting given how easy it is to lose money. And probably several others.
thedevilslawyer
2 days ago
Why should we accept assets can be owned? Your life is a meaningless speck of time in eternity.
TeMPOraL
2 days ago
I suppose because we're wired this way. Can't think of any group or society that didn't have some notion of private property that wasn't just a huge (and brief) humanitarian tragedy.
hammock
2 days ago
Yes, private property enables human civilization, all the good and the bad. Before the agricultural revolution led to protected and exploited stores of grain, we were far smaller tribes of hunters and gatherers with far less technology
hellojesus
a day ago
Those smaller tribes were continuously at war over resources... It's exactly the behavior we observe in nature whenever resource scarcity presents.
A world without private property leads to a world of pure lawlessness. Sure... We could do that, but it would quickly devolve into forever warfare where only might wins, and even that for only fleetingly small timeslices.
History's progression has proven that exploited workers still prefer to exist in that system vs one of continual peril.
hellojesus
a day ago
My life, yes, but my genetic lifeline exists up to and including eternity if luck and good decision making are on the side of my generations of offspring.
Let's consider the most basic form of ownership: that over one's body. By your logic, my life is a spec on the eternal timeline, so why make it a crime to harm or murder my physically?
Quarrelsome
a day ago
> Imo, estate taxes are more immoral. Why should the state be allowed a cut of my private assets?
To prevent family dynasties from building more and more economic power over time and threatening the state in the future due to the forces of compound interest. To be fair, most family dynasties don't do this, but others can wreck exceptional havoc just by wanting to, due to the generational power they've amassed. The damage they can do is further accelarated by them lacking understanding of how people without generational wealth live.
We already see this happening in our society as most media organisations are run by billionaires or multi-millionaires. News organisations are run less and less by journalists or normal people and the headlines are set more and more by people with very keen and niche vested interests.
This specific issue is being played out in real-time in the Murdoch succession as he attempts to leave the propaganda firm in the hands of his most idelogically similar successor. Yet the majority of his children see the world differently from their father and are challenging this. On one side we have natural break up and change occuring due to generational shifts, and on the other the strong desire of the ancestor wanting their legacy to remain unspoilt after their death.
amarait
2 days ago
I agree. Its very difficult to find people who agree with this
UncleOxidant
a day ago
> But we can also argue that dropping some hundreds of millions in VC capital is less immoral than other activities, such as holding that money in liquid assets.
It really depends a lot on how those liquid assets are deployed.
I agree that Apple should have probably done something with their cash hoard like maybe buying or bolstering Intel so that they could have a domestic supply of chips, but apparently Apple has decided that there's just not much else to do with that money right now that would give them a better return? We might not agree with that assessment, but it's hard to call it immoral.
amelius
2 days ago
I learned this in elementary school. When 10 kids join forces to bully one kid, that is immoral. Same with companies and VC money trying to corner a market.
MichaelZuo
2 days ago
Isn’t that the point of having a government with laws and regulation… to allow the majority to bully specific undesirable minority groups into submission?
For some things it’s even a worldwide consensus, e.g. any groups with a desire to acquire large amounts of plutonium (who don’t belong to a preapproved list).
There’s even a strong consistent push to make it ever more inescapable, comprehensive, resistant to any possible deviation, etc…
amelius
2 days ago
No, you've got that backwards. In a functioning democracy respecting the rule of law, the government with its laws and regulation are the school teachers who are putting the bullies into detention.
aspenmayer
2 days ago
Frequently, the bullies are on the student council, and because they get more face time with the administration and are seen as part of the establishment by the same, admins are reluctant to do more than a slap of the hand, but appearances must be kept up with.
MichaelZuo
2 days ago
Based on what argument?
Just writing your opinion down doesn’t seem relevant to real life government organization.
I don’t see how there could be “school teachers” above the majority of congressman or regulatory decision makers. The very existence of pork filled bills thousands of pages long and byzantine regulations suggest that couldn’t possibly be true.
amelius
2 days ago
If your government is corrupt then it doesn't make sense to say that the concept of having a government is dead and that corporations are the solution.
MichaelZuo
2 days ago
How does this relate to the prior comment?
amelius
2 days ago
It relates to it because you chose an example specific to US government which we all know is not a good example.
MichaelZuo
2 days ago
How do you know it’s not applicable elsewhere?
e.g. Plenty of countries have huge bills that no one fully reads and huge numbers of regulations.
amelius
2 days ago
There will always be something to complain.
People are also sick and tired of rules in the AppStore. Or the fact that when their Apple/Google/whatever account is unilaterally blocked they have no recourse. At least with a government there are some checks and balances.
Yes, some governments are more trustworthy than others. Doesn't mean the concept is bad.
MichaelZuo
12 hours ago
Can you write down the actual argument?
Repeating your opinion isn’t going to lead to any productive discussion.
anton-c
2 days ago
Does every democracy have that problem with bills? I thought it was mostly a US issue.
harimau777
2 days ago
Most people want to live in a society that maximizes positive freedom, or some balance of freedom and prosperity. In those societies, it is considered legitimate for the government to use force to stop people whose actions prevent members of society from having positive freedom/prosperity.
Of course that is a very simplified description. In practice, most societies promote a balance between positive and negative freedom, recognize some limits on the government's ability to use force, recognize some degree to which people can choose to act in ways that don't promote positive freedom/prosperity, etc.
Weryj
2 days ago
AI will change the balance of power removing a vital counter balance against the negatives of capitalism.
It will take the power away from the workers, such that there will be no power left for people to make demands.
We can hope it’ll be positive, but we aren’t even involved in its creation and the incentives are there to ensure it isn’t.
steve1977
2 days ago
I guess the good thing is that many workers are also consumers. If they don't have money to consume anymore, who will buy all the shiny things that AI will produce so efficiently?
Weryj
17 hours ago
Most influence would be through B2B channels, I'd guess.
joshmarlow
2 days ago
I agree AI can change the balance of power but I think it's more nuanced.
When expertise is commoditized, it becomes cheap; that reduces payroll and operational costs - which reduces the value of VC investment and thus the power of pre-existing wealth.
If AI means I can compete with fewer resources, then that's an equalizing dynamic isn't it?
fc417fc802
a day ago
That assumes you (the human element) are still required to a significant degree. Right now those with assets are compelled to transfer them to those without because they have a need for the labor. If that need evaporates then why should they give you anything?
joshmarlow
15 hours ago
> Right now those with assets are compelled to transfer them to those without because they have a need for the labor.
Yes - and those without are compelled to trade their labor for assets.
My point is that the assets themselves mean less when the average person can use AI to design anything - that makes the costs of production go down.
In a world where production is cheap, the money required to produce has relative less value.
dragonwriter
15 hours ago
> My point is that the assets themselves mean less when the average person can use AI to design anything
I’m not sure which assets you think that devalues; it certainly increases the value of the assets needed to run AI, and also of the assets needed to realize the things that people can design with AI.
> In a world where production is cheap, the money required to produce has relative less value.
In a world where your labor isn't required for production, the assets that are required for production have a much greater value relative to your labor than they do in one in which your labor is required to produce something.
“Cheap” is only a thing relative to some other thing.
joshmarlow
15 hours ago
To clarify, I'm focusing on the costs of ramping up a startup.
Currently VC has a great deal of power because up-front investment is required to hire staff and other expenses until the startup can become cash-flow positive. When a lone individual can start a venture using AI then the payroll costs go down. The investment requirements go down.
Yes, automation means that people with assets don't have to pay other people for their labor.
But it also means that people starting new ventures have less need of significant up-front capital.
fc417fc802
43 minutes ago
I agree that lower up front expenses means less need for investment. I'll also note that it opens up the playing field to more people which increases competition. So it might or might not make your life easier.
However the technology that is expected to reduce labor requirements (and thus expenses) has an uncertain endpoint. It seems plausible that at some point a threshold could be crossed beyond which the human labor that you are able to add on top becomes essentially irrelevant. It is this second occurrence, or rather how society might react to it, that should be cause for at least some concern.
Weryj
a day ago
oh, the real world changes will be nuanced.
but they'll start happening because of the new incentive.
mattigames
2 days ago
Just from the environmental perspective is pretty immoral, the energy being consumed it's ridiculous and now every company is in an arms race making it all worse.
renewiltord
2 days ago
In general, modern English uses “this is immoral” to mean “I don’t like this”. It’s a language quirk. It’s good that you’re asking the whys to get somewhere but I might as well just get to it.
“Immoral”, “should not exist”, “late-stage capitalism” are tribal affiliation chants intended to mark one’s identity.
E.g. I go to the Emirates and sing “We’re Arrrrrsenal! We’re by far the greatest time the world has ever seen”. And the point is to signal that I’m an Arsenal fan, a gooner. If someone were to ask “why are you the greatest team?” I wouldn’t be able to answer except with another chant (just like these users) because I’m just chanting for my team. The words aren’t really meaningful on their own.
dmbche
2 days ago
Fairly cynicial aren't we?
renewiltord
2 days ago
What an immoral comment.
dmbche
a day ago
As a more substantial take, being cynical about the language a group uses to speak of their realities and wants is necessarily against dialogue, understanding or seeing the members of that group as equals.
If "their" political views have the same value as ones affiliation to a sports team, but your political views are well researched and valid, could you be overlooking something? Edit0: and more importantly, what are they to you? Do they not have the same mental faculties as you? How they able to live and thrive while in total abhorrence to natural law? Or are they all naive children who don't know better?
And yes, in any group you'll find loud idiots. Those are in your group too - you just ignore them and focus on the other group's idiots, while disregarding the valid views that are behind.
Especially in the age of algorithmic social media, it's hard to parse what's actually being said.
FooBarBizBazz
2 days ago
The numbers are insane to me, relative to other "real" industries. E.g., making some inferences from a recent Economist article, the entire world's nuclear industry "only" generates something like $30bn/year revenue (https://archive.is/WYfIG).
eastbound
a day ago
If each French inhabitant consumes 500€ electricity per year and 73% is nuclear, that already makes 24bn€, $28bn.
Nasrudith
2 days ago
All this time complaining about companies not investing in research and development for future prosperity and now when they actually do so it is suddenly outright immoral?
blitzar
2 days ago
> complaining about companies not investing in research and development
Glancing over the last few decades of tax returns it looks like they are claiming a lot of tax credits for R&D, so much so that if someone had a closer look they might find some Fraud, Waste or Abuse.
gameman144
2 days ago
Wasteful R&D is still R&D, the company just presumably doesn't get a return on it.
If the company does get a return, then the R&D wasn't wasteful.
And regardless, the tax code doesn't and shouldn't (IMO) differentiate there, to encourage companies to take risks.
user
2 days ago
suddenlybananas
2 days ago
Burning a pile of money is not investing in research.
pj_mukh
2 days ago
I think the author should've clarified that this is purely a conversation about the platform plays. There will be 100's of thousands of companies on the application layer, and mini-platform plays that will have your run-of-the-mill new grad or 1x engineer.
Everything else is just executives doing a bit of dance for their investors ala "We won't need employees anymore!"
bix6
a day ago
O great so just the most important companies that are inherently monopolistic gate keepers. It's worked out so well with all these current platforms totally not restricting access and abusing everyone else with rent seeking and other anti competitive behaviors.
LightBug1
2 days ago
Optimistic take. What's the say the application layer won't be dominated by the big players as they hoover up anything remotely promising. Leaving the crumbs on the mini-platform .. ala Apple App Store ...
Sorry, I'm pessimistic as recent experience is one of hyper concentration of ideas, capital, talent, everything.
anovikov
2 days ago
Ironically, there's no M2 expansion going on since Covid days and M2 to GDP is back to what it was pre-Covid and overall didn't even increase much at all even since GFC. It's only 1.5x of what it was at the bottom in 1997 when cost of capital was much higher than today. I think this concern is misplaced.
sfblah
2 days ago
M2 is the wrong statistic for sure, but the thrust of GP's comment is accurate, IMO. Fed intervention has not remotely been removed from the economy. The "big beautiful bill" probably just amounts to another round of it (fiscal excess will lead to a crisis which will force a monetary bailout).
user
2 days ago
immibis
2 days ago
We should be using some kind of weighted total of all the things that get treated as money.
When a company makes a deal in exchange for shares or something, those shares are being used as money and must be included in any currency-neutral calculation of the money supply. However, most shares don't flow like money. You also have cryptos, which flow more than shares but less than government bonds and cash. It could be that the total of all money has expanded, even as the US dollar specifically stabilizes and slightly contracts.
bix6
a day ago
Yeah I just threw out M2 because it's easily understood / harped on but it's certainly much more complicated than that.
graeme
2 days ago
>We can’t train more people? I didn’t know Universities were suddenly producing waaaay less talent and that intelligence fell off a cliff.
University enrolment is actually set to sharply decline. It's called the Demographic Cliff: https://www.highereddive.com/news/demographic-cliff-colleges...
AnimalMuppet
2 days ago
Off topic, but: Supply and demand says that, if university enrollment drops sharply, the price of a university education should go down. That sounds like good news to me.
solatic
2 days ago
University enrollment doesn't drop sharply evenly across all universities. The lowest-desirability universities will go bust while the Ivy League continues to have hyper-competitive admissions and yearly tuition increases that outpace inflation.
ewuhic
2 days ago
In a homo economicus world. They will jack the prices up for the remaining few.
thijson
2 days ago
Here in the USA, education at some schools is kind of a luxury good. When the price goes up, the demand increases.
bix6
a day ago
Except it won't because a degree is a gate and people will pay whatever is demanded of them for it. Numbers go up never down.
BurningFrog
2 days ago
If AI is important, speeding up development of it is good.
> We can’t train more people?
Of course people are being trained at Universities. Outside of The Matrix, it takes a few years for that to complete.
SquirrelOnFire
2 days ago
Speed of development of something important isn't necessarily good. Humans are bad at absorbing a lot of change at once and it takes time to recognize and mitigate second-order effects. There's plenty of benefit to the systems that disruptors operate within (society) to not moving as fast as possible... of course since our economic systems don't factor in externalities, we've instead turned all of society into a commons.
nradov
a day ago
People said the same thing about the printing press. When you look across human history it's tough to make a moral case that slowing down technology development was ever a net positive. We can't reliably predict or prevent the problems anyway and it's pointless to even try. Just move forward and deal with the actual problems (which are usually different from the expected problems) as they arise.
BurningFrog
a day ago
The printing press was a main reason behind the reformation and the extremely bloody Thirty Year War. Because now people could read bibles themselves.
On balance I'm sure that was very useful progress, but millions of people also died in the resulting wars.
yoyohello13
a day ago
I don’t really disagree with you. I think there really is no stopping progress. For better or worse, it’s happening and there ain’t no slowing down.
But, I wish people would shut up about the printing press in these discussions already. AI disrupting literally everyone’s job at the same time is not the same as a printing technology disrupting the very niche profession of scribe. Or electric lamps putting some lamp lighters out of work.
nradov
21 hours ago
Everyone? I think HN users sometimes forget that the world isn't just software. There is no immediate prospect of AI disrupting much blue-collar work. We're going to need huge upgrades to the electrical grid and someone has to install all the new transmission lines. I doubt that we'll see a robot that can do the work in our lifetimes.
bix6
a day ago
Slowing oil would've been a net positive given how unsustainable it is and all the negative externalities it forces onto society.
nradov
a day ago
Nah. The alternative to oil was coal, or firewood, or freezing in the dark. The shift to intensive oil use enabled an enormous increase in human standards of living. If anything we should have accelerated it. The externalities have been minimal in comparison.
bix6
a day ago
Killing the earth is minimal? I said slow not prevent. Tech accelerationists think tech fixes everything when it really just lets them abuse everyone for decades before regulations catch up, if they ever do.
nradov
21 hours ago
Calm down, no one is killing the Earth. Slowing the adoption of oil would have condemned millions of people to misery and poverty. Speed it up.
UncleOxidant
a day ago
Nuclear weapons were/are important, speeding up the development of nuclear weapons doesn't seem like it would be good, though.
BurningFrog
a day ago
That's literally what the Manhattan Project was!
I think that was good, but not everyone agrees.
almosthere
a day ago
if you're targetting $200M, then I guess each round is to hire one or two engineers for one year lol
I'm curious if you're one of these AI engineers getting 100m, do you quibble over the health insurance? I mean at that point you can fully fund any operation you need and whatever long term care you need for 50 years easily.
bix6
a day ago
"Yes sorry I'm turning down your $100M because I need 2 parking spots for my sidecar" :p
v5v3
2 days ago
What does M2 expansion mean?
brazzy
2 days ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply
I.e. "printing money"
v5v3
2 days ago
Thank you
tom_m
2 days ago
Bubbles do what bubbles do.
bmitc
a day ago
I agree with your sentiment.
> This is just M2 expansion
What is "M2 expansion"?
kjkjadksj
a day ago
Fwiw universities are producing less talent. They have been getting hammered with budget shortfalls thanks to Trump cutting research funding and this manifests into programs accepting fewer students and professors being able to fund fewer students.
SJC_Hacker
a day ago
They are producing less talent as industry defines it. It is because a large percentage of the people who could teach them anything useful (to industry) are actually employed by industry, and don't want to work in academia.
Another complication is academia simply does not have the resources to remotely compete with the likes of Google, OpenAI, Anthropic, xAI, etc.
bix6
a day ago
Sure but that's new as of a few months. The university I went to still accepts the same number of students per year as it has for many years. Those numbers don't change much without significant land / program expansion which is certainly being cut now.
systemvoltage
2 days ago
[flagged]
TFYS
2 days ago
Wealth is power. Power decides what we use our collective time and resources on. The more concentrated power is, the less we use that time and resources on things that improves the life of the average person, and more on things that matter to the few with wealth.
BurningFrog
2 days ago
By far the biggest concentration of power is the US federal government.
Any power centers outside that decentralizes power.
TFYS
2 days ago
Sure, but in its current form that power can be bought and therefore mostly serves the interests of capital. That should be obvious at this point.
TrackerFF
2 days ago
I’m going to assume that this is just some edgy post, but you should read up on the relationship between wealth inequality and corruption, social mobility, and similar factors.
mattgreenrocks
2 days ago
Advocating for increased concentration of power is quite a take.
tomhow
a day ago
> simply because opposite of this is the prevailing normie zeitgeist
We'd love to be able to have reasoned discussions about economics and the pros and cons of wealth concentration vs redistribution here. But this is not the way to do it, and the comment led to an entirely predictable flamewar. Please don't do this on HN, and please make an effort to observe the guidelines, as you've been asked to do before.
pringk02
2 days ago
Can you write off everything popular with the normie zeitgeist?
muzani
2 days ago
I would say if there is a decline in society, the normies are wrong. And if there's steady improvement in quality of life, then the normie zeitgeist is correct. But there's always a delay in these things, at least a generation.
harimau777
2 days ago
I don't think that applies when the normies lack power; which is precisely the problem with wealth concentration. That would be like blaming the serfs for the failures of feudalist governments.
muzani
a day ago
There's a reason we don't have feudalist governments. It's a "solved" problem.
The normies may have much less power, but it's never zero. Wealth isn't the only form of power. There's law/politics and there's military power. Whenever a group oversteps, you get the Magna Carta, you get secularism, you get civil wars and your Second Amendment. This is why the French Revolution and The Civil War(s) are in the textbooks.
When Venezuela's economy collapsed, a South American friend said that they deserved it. Every other South American country fought corruption and died for independence.
We never want violence, but it is there as an option. Laws and economic policies are there to make sure the violence is never the best option. Non-democratic capitalism doesn't work because it puts the law and the wealth in the hands of a few and leaves force as the only option. The world didn't suddenly convert into communism because Marx and Lenin were handsome demon lords; they converted because capitalism pushed them into a corner.
When you have this decline, it's because a society had weak and corrupt lawyers, statesmen, and economists. These may not be your normies, but they're pretty close to the middle class.
But you don't get to praise capitalism for the cheap air conditioning and then criticize it when low costs push production overseas. You can't negotiate for the high salaries then blame greedy CEOs when you get replaced by someone cheaper. You don't get to charge "as high as possible" and then wonder why your doctor is charging your life savings to save your life. The normies built a culture around winning and lopsided power, then are shocked when power is used against them.
yifanl
2 days ago
Oh well in the case, we should just wait and see and die.
gnz11
2 days ago
What if QoL improves for some but goes down for others?
muzani
2 days ago
Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
johnecheck
2 days ago
The full quote is less bleak.
Democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
~Winston Churchill
pringk02
2 days ago
How would we be able to measure decline?
bix6
a day ago
Man it's hard to read stuff like this on the internet. When has wealth concentration ever been a good thing? Wealth is power and power leads to abuse almost universally.
squigz
2 days ago
Assuming you're not just a troll, it doesn't seem very reasonable to be against something simply because many people support it.
systemvoltage
2 days ago
Not trolling. It has served me better than most heuristics.
If there is something subjective and if you cannot find a critique of it, it’s usually a super power to assume the opposite is true barring obvious exceptions.
brendanjbond
2 days ago
You can't find a critique of extreme wealth concentration? There are many. Here's one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Ce...
systemvoltage
a day ago
No, I can’t find a single article praising wealth concentration.
UncleOxidant
a day ago
I can't find a lot of articles that praise genocide, either. Would you support genocide just to be contrarian?
user
2 days ago
Qwertious
2 days ago
amelius
2 days ago
Capitalism is made possible by the people. If it does not serve them well, it should be fixed or abolished.
_kb
2 days ago
You underestimate the resources the subset of society who it actually benefits can, will, and do use to distort views on how wide that benefit actually is.
ericmay
2 days ago
Like all of the startup founders and all of the folks here working at tech companies and investing in their 401ks, happily cashing out RSUs, and such right?
satyrun
2 days ago
[flagged]
amelius
2 days ago
I don't know about the IT worker part but I dare you to talk about capitalism to the nurses, school teachers and police officers who cannot have lucrative business models like us HN folks.
ericmay
2 days ago
Are these the same nurses who are anti-vax and the police officers I'm supposed to want to de-fund, or just the ones you're thinking of?
Are you going to be the one to tell the teacher's or police officer's union they have to divest their pension and buy fiat currency? No more stocks allowed!
aziaziazi
2 days ago
Why people here brandish Communism when someone critics Capitalism? It’s like we’re still in the coldwar. Those two views have many sub-categories and there’s others in-between and on the sides. Just a few in the last decades:
- socio-democratic countries are the norm in Europe, namely Norway, Denmark and Sweden.
- Ordoliberalism: Germany, Switzerland
- cooperative economics: Japan, Spain
- market socialism: China, hungaria
- Parecon: brasil, Argentina
- Ubuntu: South Africa
- Anarcho-syndicalism, The third way, Islamic economic…
nradov
a day ago
What a weird comment, so disconnected from reality. Norway is fully capitalist with income inequality similar to the USA. China, despite being nominally run by communists, is actually a fascist dictatorship. And "Ubuntu" isn't a real thing: South Africa is a failed state run by kleptocrats who can't even keep the lights on.
Konnstann
a day ago
The income inequality in Norway is roughly half that of the US, and the quality of life of the bottom income bracket is much higher there, due to social policies. Why lie about things that can easily be looked up?
nradov
a day ago
The Gini coefficient is similar so I have no idea where you're getting the idea that income equality in Norway is "half" that of the US. And the US has consistently had a positive net migration rate with Norway so regardless of your nonsense claims about quality of life people seem to be voting with their feet.
TrackerFF
2 days ago
Because they have been conditioned to do so. The ultra-wealthy have been fighting the war against socialism for over a century, and part of that strategy is to polarize the topic. If you’re not explicitly pro unfettered capitalism, you must be a communist.
Nasrudith
2 days ago
Ideologies have associated talking points. If you start spouting 'blood and soil' rhetoric don't be surprised or offended when people start to call you a Nazi.
In this case communism's obsession with talking about Capitalism as a proper noun as distributed process as if it was a monolithic discrete object with clear intentions and something which can be 'abolished' with no idea as to what the particulars would entail.
ploxiln
a day ago
> mega funds and giga corps throwing ridiculous cash for pay to win
> This is just M2 expansion and wealth concentration
I actually think "throwing ridiculous cash" _reduces_ the wealth concentration, particularly if a chunk of it is developer talent bidding war. This is money that had been concentrated, being distributed. These over-paid developers pay for goods or services from other people (and pay income taxes!). Money spent on datacenters also ends up paying people building and maintaining the data-centers, people working in the chip and server component factories, people developing those chips, etc etc. Perhaps a big chunk ends up with Jensen Huang and investors in NVidia, but still, much is spent on the rest of the economy along the way.
I don't feel bad about rich companies and people blowing their money on expensive stuff, that distributing the wealth. Be more worried of wealthy companies/people who are very efficient with their spending ...
UncleOxidant
a day ago
> I actually think "throwing ridiculous cash" _reduces_ the wealth concentration, particularly if a chunk of it is developer talent bidding war.
Very few developers are benefiting from this "talent bidding war". Many more developers are being let go as companies decide to plow more of their money into GPUs instead of paying developers.