asdff
9 hours ago
Seems like early 2000s cars were the last of the good cars. You had full airbags by that point but cars were mostly still just basic fuel injected internal combustions engines with sensible transmission choices that had seen probably decades of iteration at that point. If you wanted some crazy infotainment its not hard to roll your own with the standard sized stereo slots in those cars. No telemetry. No "driver aids" behaving nondeterministically. Mechanical linkages vs by wire. Just a car. Starts with a key. Exactly what is says on the tin and nothing more or less.
sugarpimpdorsey
8 hours ago
I'm routinely ridiculed for driving a car with a traditional ignition key, and insisting upon it, as if it's exclusive to Luddities.
Everyone else can enjoy their reflection/replay attacks or whatever.
Honorable mention to Toyota who has still not completely abandoned this simple, functional technology for a clunky fob that can be easily hacked.
FWIW, fobs are not for your convenience. It's for theirs.
globular-toast
8 hours ago
> FWIW, fobs are not for your convenience. It's for theirs.
Same with touch buttons. Not for you convenience, it's for theirs.
taeric
8 hours ago
I'm curious who you are routinely interacting with that they care about your car keys. :D
I do think the writing is on the wall for old fashioned keys, though? For one, they don't really give you that much protection. As laughable as poorly done key fobs are, a physical key is a pretty low bar as far as deterrence goes.
It can be annoying to consider, but cultural norms protect cars far more than anything else. Is why many in suburban areas can get away with having their keys in the cars at all times.
sugarpimpdorsey
8 hours ago
Keys have been chipped for > 30 years. The technology is proven, secure, and reliable. Kia and Hyundai learned this the hard way when they tried to shave pennies a few years ago.
Fobs just created another attack vector catering to people too lazy to take it out of their pocket or purse.
gottorf
8 hours ago
> people too lazy to take it out of their pocket or purse
Keyless start has another legitimate function besides laziness: it allows you to leave your car locked with the engine (and AC) running while a baby or dog is inside.
Of course, you can accomplish the same by having two keys with you; you decide whether that's another example of laziness. :-)
sugarpimpdorsey
7 hours ago
It's not a legitimate function because the car will beep at you if you walk away.
Some aftermarket remote starts have this feature.
However, in many states it's illegal to leave a car running unattended.
Though one could argue in court the baby or dog could serve as the attendant. Having said that, leaving a baby or dog unattended, AC or not, is just stupid.
olyjohn
6 hours ago
My Ford from the year 2000 has a 5 digit keypad on the door. I can lock my keys in the car, leave it running, lock and unlock it without an extra key. I can grant anybody access by just giving them the code. I hated carrying the stupid bulky keyless entry fob in my pocket, and threw it in a drawer, so my keychain is very small. It still has a chipped key to turn on the ignition system and start the vehicle. It's vehicle locking perfection.
zamadatix
7 hours ago
Chipped keys have constantly fallent to cloning attacks and worse. The idea "you insert it therefore the whole system is secure" is backwards reasoning when the problem is the chips, protocols, and buggy security implementations themselves.
sugarpimpdorsey
7 hours ago
Moving the goalposts. No chipped key car has ever been stolen by beaming some kit off AliExpress at it and simply driving away.
throwing_away
4 hours ago
I bought kit that can do this off AliExpress.
Here's the repo: https://github.com/joelsernamoreno/EvilCrowRF-V2
qualeed
8 hours ago
Backup cameras are amazing. Especially now that I have kids shorter than my trunk line, I appreciate them even more.
A lot of the other stuff, though, I agree with you.
giantg2
8 hours ago
Back up cameras can easily be added aftermarket if wanted. But frankly, many of those older cars had much better rearward vision that anything today.
qualeed
8 hours ago
Sure, but where I live they are mandated by law in every new car.
There's plenty of kids on my street, and I'm much more comfortable knowing everyone has one when backing out of a driveway, and not just the people who bothered to go get one installed aftermarket.
giantg2
4 hours ago
I'd feel more comfortable if we'd raise the standards for the driving test so that only responsible people can drive. For example, the proper way to park is to back into the driveway. You should never be backing from a smaller road or driveway into the larger one. The perk of this is that you do not have to watch for cross traffic while backing up and also looking at a camera, no gear change delay when pulling out, and better visibility into the area you are backing up to due to your approach. This makes it significantly safer for all parties when exiting the driveway.
AlotOfReading
3 hours ago
I'd feel more comfortable if we'd raise the standards for the driving test so that only responsible people can drive.
That perfect driver doesn't exist. Virtually everyone will eventually drive unsafely when they're sleepy, in a rush, distracted by kids in the backseat, etc.To give a programming analogy, this is like saying "we can prevent memory safety issues by only allowing good programmers to use C". Everyone makes mistakes.
qualeed
3 hours ago
I mean, sure, of course that'd be great too. If we could raise the standards high enough that there was never any accidents ever, that'd be even better.
But the realistic option that worked immediately was mandating backup cameras.
(I would note that even in a world where everyone backed up into their driveways and parking spots, mandated backup cameras would still be a good thing.)
taeric
8 hours ago
We must have driven very different cars. Rear visibility has always been terrible, and rear cameras are a god send.
giantg2
4 hours ago
Compare an 80s Caprice, 80s Nova, and similar to any car today, and I think you will clearly see the rear visibility today is much worse.
const_cast
8 hours ago
Older cars are more likely to be things like coupes, a form factor more or less abandoned today. I know, I used to drive a coupe. Dear God, the rear visibility was the worse out of any car. And the side blind-spots. You'd think a small vehicle would have good side visibility but no, all you get are those tiny little back windows.
But, it was a beauty.
red369
5 hours ago
Generally, I think you're right. But there is quite a range even for coupes. I'm sure Porsche can afford to use higher strength steels, but the pillars on a 911 are surprisingly thin: https://h7.alamy.com/comp/B082JF/2008-porsche-911-turbo-in-s...
On the other hand, coupes with rear hatches can be particularly bad: https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/2004-toy...
Looking at the extremes like the Honda CRZ, it does seem to be a low priority area!
avgDev
8 hours ago
Ah, I agree for the most part, however, safety has definitely moved forward. There is a lot more to safety than airbags and seatbelts.
strulovich
8 hours ago
My car hit the breaks for me last week on a highway. I’m quite happy with the computerization of cars for this reason. It could be better as the link shows the downsides, but it probably has saved (tens of?) thousands of lives overall.
potato3732842
7 hours ago
A couple months ago I was driving a rental and I coasted up on slow exit traffic with the intent of dodging right after the person to my right passed me. Well I got that far but I got close enough to the slowing traffic in front of me in the process it decided to brake. And of course because electronic throttle they lock you out of the gas. And it takes a couple seconds for it to decide that no, I really did want to go fast, so it lets me do that but of course the CVT needs to incrementally wind its way there at a leisurely pace.
So instead of cleanly pulling off my merge into a lane going 10mph faster than me I look like a goddamn moron for zipping over and then hard braking away 20mph of speed. All because some programmers buried in Toyota HQ somewhere spent too much time on the HN or Reddit or whatever circle jerking it in the comments with the "you can never go wrong by braking" crowd. Could have been way worse had it been a spicer situation, like merging into traffic with a disabled vehicle at the end of the merge ramp or just about any other case with equal or great speed differential and equal or lesser margin.
A car should do what I say. I can understand doing something when I have provided no input or perhaps ignore a 0-100% press to prevent wrong pedal accidents but this is just horrible systems design. If I'm traveling at speed and mash the gas it stands to reason I did that on purpose.
stavros
7 hours ago
My car hit the brakes for me last week on a highway as well, except there was no reason to, there was nothing there. I'm not as happy.
kevin_thibedeau
6 hours ago
I intentionally opted out of these sort of driver assist features because I don't trust the firmware going into them. If a safety misfeature can be disabled manually you also run the risk of an insurer denying a claim if they find out it wasn't engaged. Better to not have it in the first place and use the mark I eyeball for safety.
stavros
6 hours ago
Yeah, I'm not happy I have them, but I'm happy other drivers have them. I guess they help overall, since I need to be careful to keep a safe distance from the guy in front of me anyway.
avgDev
8 hours ago
Even the structures of cars have improved. The crumple zones and structural rigidity is constantly evolving.
I also like sensors and crash avoidance tech.
szundi
8 hours ago
[dead]
potato3732842
6 hours ago
Each improvement is hugely less influential than the last. Seatbelts get you 90% of the way there. Airbags do most of the rest, etc, etc.
Gigachad
6 hours ago
All those improvements have been undone by the entire market turning in to brodozers and soccer mum tanks.
MisterTea
9 hours ago
I miss them too.
Re. the radio: Now its a big useless screen that shows me useless data while still hiding all the useful data that I can get over OBD-II. And whats worse, that screen is tied to your fucking cars computer and configures your car so you cant remove it, no matter how much the software sucks. I hate my 2022 CR-V's garbage infotainment screen. Its a shit UI, shit audio quality, and the Bluetooth is bugged to all hell. I already have a computer with me in my car called a phone that does everything but better. And that's not saying much.
_heimdall
7 hours ago
I came to the same conclusion. The exact year varies a bit by manufacturer.
Chevy's pre-2008 were in a good spot, maybe 2007 for the avalanche body change? Quite a few Hondas and Toyotas were good through the early teens, especially the 4 cylinders.
I have a late 80s GMC pickup, 2005 Buick, and a Chevy Volt. The only one I have any real issues with is the Volt, though that's only been the last couple years as the battery is getting old; the most frustrating thing is needing to run questionable software on an airgapped laptop just to turn the Volt back on when a high voltage safety flag is flipped tripped in the computer.
rigrassm
3 hours ago
You wouldn't happen to have the software you used to work on your Volt bookmarked that you could share? I've got a Gen 2 Volt that I plan to keep for as long as it makes financial sense and sometimes that shady software is the only option for avoiding the dealership.
_heimdall
an hour ago
I don't remember the name of the exact setup I have. I know I've seen people on the Volt forums have success with the GDS2 software and a VCX Nano OBD2 adapter, though I've never used that myself.
potato3732842
5 hours ago
Really depends on the particular model and when it got refreshed and how much the OEM cares about it more so than the manufacturer.
Sometimes the platforms that the OEMs don't care about are great because the idiot dick swinging engineers who want to hit their KPIs neglect them. Sometimes they're terrible because they get phoned in. The flagship platforms are usually safe but sometimes they put too much bleeding edge tech in them.
_heimdall
3 hours ago
Yep that's very true. I always heard good things about the original Chevy Trailblazers, mainly because the motors were extremely reliable and Chevy basically ignored the model until they had to kill it off due to emissions of the inline 6. The 00s Chevy interior was another story, and I hear the transmissions used were either fine or time bombs.
rlf_dev
7 hours ago
There still are cars being sold without much of new "technology", I daily a MY2024 Abarth 595 that still doesn't have start-stop, ECall, auto braking, telemetry, lane-assist, the infotainment is replaceable by a standard third-party box without messing with the rest of the car and still has a traditional ignition key. It's a basic turbocharged FIAT FIRE engine, so maintenance is stupidly cheap and anyone can do it.
spacecadet
9 hours ago
I own a bunch of impractical cars, but my daily driver is a 2005 Honda. I always explain to people exactly this. It's the last good year before everything became too digitized and wireless. It's got physical controls, a real horn, a cable driven throttle and at 350,000 miles with so little maintenance and no sign of stopping.
I also own a 05 55 AMG, also all mechanical, but oh so impracticable :D
LightBug1
8 hours ago
Think you're onto something. I'm still rolling a 2005 Toyota. Incredibly functional, reliable, and I can add whatever I want and choose instead of having it forced down my throat by the current wave of nonsense ... Oh, and zero worries about it being hacked !