Vitamin C Boosts Epidermal Growth via DNA Demethylation

111 pointsposted 18 hours ago
by gnabgib

64 Comments

ggm

14 hours ago

In cell cultures. So nothing about topical, or digestive pathways. Just, expose cells to vitamin c rich medium.

How would topical application work, and what kind of homeostasis effect, from ingestion.

If you are low on vitamin c in your diet, sure. If not, you may not get much benefit from having more.

ethan_smith

11 hours ago

Topical vitamin C (L-ascorbic acid) at concentrations of 10-20% with pH <3.5 can penetrate the stratum corneum, though stability and formulation significantly impact bioavailability.

jijijijij

2 hours ago

You can just freshly mix cheap vitamin C powder and water to the desired concentration, adjust pH to be less irritating. The solution can last for a few days, if cooled and protected from light. For it to be effective (according to studies), it needs to be applied daily/frequently. However, DIY is so cheap, you can use it all over your body. Wash/wipe off excess (see below).

The problem is commercialization. Vitamin C is very, very reactive, so formulating it for shelf storage and production is challenging. I think you either have to add expensive/exotic antioxidant systems, or rely on ascorbate derivatives which may be less/not effective.

Fair warning: Vitamin C degrades to dehydroascorbic acid: After some delay, vitamin C solution may stain skin and everything in contact yellow. DHA may also further break down into erythrulose, a self-tanning agent browning the skin semi-permanently (likely not very healthy). Vitamin C may also react with other things (eg. skin care products) in unpredictable ways and can actually form radicals under some conditions. Eg. It can react with benzoic acid to form benzene. On the modern skin, with UV exposure, a primordial soup of "actives", complex hydrocarbons and all natural metal catalysts, vitamin C may facilitate genesis…

The science is promising, but the chemistry of vitamin C is hard to control, or even reason about.

inkyoto

2 hours ago

> The problem is commercialization. Vitamin C is very, very reactive.

… hence it oxidises easily.

There has recently been a novel development, ethyl ascorbic acid, that is much more stable due to being more inert. It resists the oxidation for a much longer time compared to ascorbyl glucoside and L-ascorbic acid, and it has been successfully commercialised in some skincare products. The products using it command a premium, though.

jijijijij

an hour ago

AFAIK, the derivatives are less researched, so hard to argue about. Often, the concentration isn’t disclosed, too.

I would just go DIY, since commercial products are either very, very expensive, or ineffective. Once you got your measurements down, mixing it freshly takes no time. And you can afford to use it all over the body, not just the face. This way you know, it’s not oxidized, it’s exactly what’s used in some better studies, it is effective. Even DIYing a stabilized formulation with ferulic acid is possible and still much cheaper.

Personally, I have trust issues with vitamin C chemistry tho :D

cookiengineer

5 hours ago

Maybe plasters with ascorbin acid in it? That would be the first thing that comes to mind. Or maybe plaster spray where it's mixed with the typical protein foam?

majkinetor

7 hours ago

Everybody is low on C in diet. It's thermolabile, and there is glucose competition for GLUT transporters.

IMO, everybody should take at least 2g daily in a couple of doses, particularly smokers.

nabla9

4 hours ago

This is not true. 2g is the max recommended dose.

Most people can get enough vitamin C each day from food or drink. 3/4 cup of orange juice daily is enough. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-h...

Taking vitamin C orally decreases muscle mitochondrial biogenesis and harms the health benefits of training, like increased insulin resistance. (well established from multiple studies, easy to google).

There was huge antioxidant craze in late 90's and 00's when taking antioxidant supplements like C was considered the right thing to do. Now we know that just taking more antioxidants does not directly help with oxidization tress, because it messes up metabolism and can even increase it.

bryant

3 hours ago

majkinetor

2 hours ago

Cherry picking 2 studies out of zillions and calling it science? Good job

nabla9

2 hours ago

> well established from multiple studies, easy to google

That's not all of them. You can find systematic reviews and meta-analyses walking trough them all. Easy to google. 50-100 mg per day is OK and possible has some benefits, if you go to more than 2 grams like you suggested for health person, there is no evidence of benefits, only harms.

majkinetor

an hour ago

There are literary thousands of papers on C every year, basically all are positive.

Animals make it in grams, all of them on this planet. Yet you claim 50mg is only OK.

Get serious.

majkinetor

2 hours ago

Yeah, you go with orange juice, you seem to know this topic :)

nabla9

an hour ago

I now enough that your > 2g is bogs claim.

majkinetor

an hour ago

Yeah, me and Pauling, double time Nobel winner and the only one in history :)

jb1991

2 hours ago

Please do not spread misinformation here. It can be misleading at best, dangerous at worst.

majkinetor

43 minutes ago

Please don't spread fear here, vitamin C is non-toxic and can only help people, and this place represents a hacking oriented culture.

Find me a case report about the danger of vitamin C (not a theoretical one) and we can talk. Otherwise, you are free to behave and believe in whatever you want.

burnt-resistor

14 hours ago

Oh lord, not another "wellness hack". And here comes the people giving themselves kidney stones and spinal cord problems to be featured on Chubbyemu.

https://youtu.be/oeyt2zVqCG8

user

an hour ago

[deleted]

cultofmetatron

14 hours ago

honestly that video was surprising on how safe zinc is. I mean he went so beyond anything close to a reasonable dose. bro was eating tubes of dental paste.

asveikau

13 hours ago

This is a weird video to see after one of my son's doctors told me I should supplement him with zinc. Of course I'm following dosage recommendations.

burnt-resistor

13 hours ago

If there's a real deficiency, it should be managed with blood tests.

Growing up and recently, I've been anemic (iron deficient) without any obvious medical cause. That requires supplementation with an unusual amount of iron.

Also, I'm vitamin A deficient at baseline and have to take large amounts, around 15k IU/day, to stay within the "normal" range. (50% above ordinary UL.)

asveikau

10 hours ago

Yeah I'm not going to go into everything but this was based on lab work.

storus

7 hours ago

Blood tests are often misleading, not showing tissue deficiencies. For those there might be 1-2 labs in the world that can do them depending on the type of deficiency.

farseer

3 hours ago

Vitamin C supplements and cancer risk is an active area of research. Unless there is a genuine deficiency, I would stay away from supplements just to look pretty until there is more clarity.

richarlidad

3 hours ago

Vitamin C’s relationship with cancer risk appears complex and context-dependent. While maintaining adequate blood levels (≥60.19 μmol/L) is associated with reduced cancer mortality, supplementation may increase postmenopausal breast cancer risk by 32% in women with already high dietary intake. This suggests a U-shaped relationship where both deficiency and excess may be detrimental, emphasizing the importance of personalized approaches to vitamin C intake.

See: https://inspectsupplement.com/vitamin-c/#Cancer

sydbarrett74

5 hours ago

With conflicting evidence that vitamin C may promote tumour growth, how much study has been done as to whether this might exacerbate skin cancer?

inkyoto

3 hours ago

… coffee is good for you, coffee is bad for you. Table salt is bad for you, table salt is good for you. Red wine is good for you, red wine is bad for you. We have gone a full circle on each of those so many times.

Linus Pauling used IV injections of vitamin C in 1970's to treat terminal cancer tumours, subsequent studies in 1990's failed to reproduce the effect so it was abandoned (and discredited), and over the past decade the interest has rekindled the research and phase 3 trial is underway for high dose IV injections of vitamin C as adjuvant therapy for pancreatic and solid cancer tumours[0].

[0] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12094-024-03553-x

apt-apt-apt-apt

9 hours ago

So true. I have been vitamin-C deficient the past 20 years and my skin has definitely degraded.

woleium

15 hours ago

So possible treatment for age related thinning of the skin.

kanbankaren

15 hours ago

Well, there are already multiple skin creams with Vitamin C. They have been available for a long time, but they are expensive for what it provides.

Just taking a 500mg x 2 Vitamin C supplements should provide enough for skin repair.

inkyoto

14 hours ago

Let's not engage in quakery and resort to knowledge instead.

Oral and transdermal (topical) application of Vitamin C (and other molecules in general) follow completely different routes with different absorption rates and accompanying nuances.

Oral intake. Absorption rate is dosage dependent:

  – At moderate doses (≤ 250 mg/day): 70–90 per cent of ascorbate is absorbed into the bloodstream. Bloodstream means just that – Vitamin C will be distributed throughout the entire body, which includes tissues, internal organs and skin. Active absorption takes place in the small intestine predominantly by SVCT1 and SVCT2 sodium-ascorbate co-transporters.

  – At high doses (≥ 1g a day): passive diffusion takes over and also takes place in the small intestine although now via GLUT transporters that become saturated and absorption efficiency drops to 50 per cent or lower.
The half-life of Vitamin C taken orally is approximately four hours anyway, after which any excess of it still circulating will be rapidly excreted via the renal route (kidneys). Studies report that significantly less than 0.1 per cent makes into the epidermal (skin) layer.

Transdermal (topical) application. Depends on the concentration and several factors, but a 20% concentration serum (not a cream) can achieve a > 80% absorption rate through the skin into receptor fluid after 24 hours. Half-life of Vitamin C applied topically is approximately 4 days.

Recap: less than < 0.1 % / 4 hours half-life for the oral route vs more than 80 % / 4 days half-life for the transdermal route.

majkinetor

7 hours ago

Liposomal C will achieve higher concentrations in cells as it doesn't rely on GLUT/SVCT.

Otherwise, the absorption of high doses depends on stress level - when you are not healthy, your body will absorb A LOT more, as shown by vitamin C bowel tolerance method.

To be sure you have it where it counts, take all forms of C - liposomal, film, AA and topical

inkyoto

6 hours ago

Ascorbyl palmitate («liposomal C»), when taken orally, is absorbed by the same active‐transport and passive‐diffusion mechanisms as plain vitamin C, with the same saturation thresholds. And it has the same problem as ascorbic acid, sodium ascorbate and calcium ascorbate – it gets distributed throughout the entire body with only minute amounts reaching the «skin».

Topical application of ascorbyl palmitate/«liposomal C», on the other hand, has very poor uptake due to the molecule size being too big to penetrate the skin layer[0]:

  L-ascorbic acid must be formulated at pH levels less than 3.5 to enter the skin. Maximal concentration for optimal percutaneous absorption was 20%. Tissue levels were saturated after three daily applications; the half-life of tissue disappearance was about 4 days. Derivatives of ascorbic acid including magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, ascorbyl-6-palmitate, and dehydroascorbic acid did not increase skin levels of L-ascorbic acid.
Key takeway: «Derivatives of ascorbic acid including magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, ascorbyl-6-palmitate (a.k.a «liposomal C», and dehydroascorbic acid did not increase skin levels of L-ascorbic acid».

[0] Source: https://europepmc.org/article/MED/11207686

majkinetor

6 hours ago

Liposomal C IS NOT ascorbyl palmitate. The point is about liposome anyway, not the form of vitamin C. There are a number of research papers showing higher bioavailability, some even claim its similar to IV.

inkyoto

3 hours ago

Ah, so you are actually talking about the liposome encased ascorbic acid. I have seen a number of products that misrepresented ascorbyl palmitate as liposomal vitamin C, hence the enquiry.

Taking any form of vitamin C orally still confers statistically insignificant benefits for the skin due to having to propagate and get distributed throughout the entire body.

The article in question discusses the benefits of the topical application of vitamin C, the benefits of which have been extensively studied. Vitamin C (especially in combination with ferulic acid) is amongst very few skincare products that actually work – it has been known for a long time.

majkinetor

2 hours ago

> Taking any form of vitamin C orally still confers statistically insignificant benefits for the skin due to having to propagate and get distributed throughout the entire body.

Maybe not if you take it in multiple of grams, e.g. you brute force it to replace non-working GULO gene you have, that would do it in that range if not defective.

inkyoto

2 hours ago

Can you explain and cite a study reference? I'm not following it. Taking vitamin C by grams will give one a diarrhoea, and a pretty violent one.

One of the common strategies to prolong the circulation of vitamin C is to recycle it by coupling it with, e.g. N-acetyl cysteine.

majkinetor

an hour ago

> Taking vitamin C by grams will give one a diarrhoea, and a pretty violent one.

Yes when your body gets enough of it (its called Vitamin C Flush and its not harmful), which is dynamic. I take 10+ grams and do not have diarrhoea, I might get it on 20+ IF I am healthy. I don't get it with 100g when I have influenza which is the state of the system when body requires more and SVCT pumps are active like crazy. This is trivially easy to check out yourself, you don't need a study. I have never seen a better feedback system for any drug, really.

> Can you explain and cite a study reference?

There are no studies about it, you need to try it yourself. Vitamin C is non-toxic and doesn't produce kidney stones, contrary to popular belief.

There are medical hypothesis and Linus Pauling wrote a few books about it long time ago.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/030698...

Check out pharmacokinetics here:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1359084080230542...

> One of the common strategies to prolong the circulation of vitamin C is to recycle it by coupling it with, e.g. N-acetyl cysteine.

Yes, I take NAC too, however, the worst offender is sugar, as GLUT2 transports both C and glucose, and since its passive transporter C gets outcompeted given the levels of both.

I can explain 2 decades of experience with it, if you need some info send me a note.

kanbankaren

13 hours ago

Is the 80% absorbed Vitamin C through transdermal route cross the epidermis & dermis layers?

inkyoto

10 hours ago

That is indeed correct.

MangoToupe

14 hours ago

Therapy is another option

anon373839

8 hours ago

I know this was a joke, but I can't really understand the worldview that says people should accept physical decline in a passive way. The fact is, we actually have a lot of control over how quickly and how well we age. Just using sunscreen can prevent a lot of the age-related loss of skin structure. And interventions like topical retinoids or collagen induction (e.g. microneedling) can even restore some thickness and elasticity that have already been lost. This also goes for fitness, joint health, and a lot of other things. Caring for your body is actually well aligned with the goals of psychotherapy.

ch4s3

14 hours ago

Red light, or something more chemical?

MangoToupe

14 hours ago

Ah I should have said "psychotherapy" to get the joke across better

epcoa

4 hours ago

Pauling spins furiously in his grave in approval.

SlowTao

10 hours ago

As a vaguely related aside, my skin is typically better when I have a decent vitamin c intake. Essentially all I do is have a orange or two every night. Nothing too extreme.

This is VERY anecdotal!

jandrewrogers

8 hours ago

Oranges are not particularly high in ascorbic acid as such things go, so I would expect any effect to be pretty marginal. Other fruits and vegetables contain considerably more.

jijijijij

an hour ago

They are, but you have to eat the peel, too. I actually love it, but it’s not to everyone’s taste. Of course the oranges need to be free of pesticides, peel declared suitable for consumption.

amelius

6 hours ago

The effects can be significant, even if not due to vit C but something else in the oranges.

radu_floricica

10 hours ago

This just found a potential mechanism, right? Because we did know that, AFAIK. A doctor recommended me vitamin C for faster healing of minor lesions about a decade ago.

brador

3 hours ago

Could be why so many suggested home skin remedy moisturisers contain lemon juice.

deadbabe

15 hours ago

This is why you need to include a good vitamin C serum in your daily skincare routine.

m463

13 hours ago

"I always use an after-shave lotion with little or no alcohol because alcohol dries your face out and makes you look older. Then moisturizer, then an anti-aging eye balm, followed by a final moisturizing "protective" lotion..."

Bateman stares into the mirror. The masque has dried, giving his face a strange distorted look as if it has been wrapped in plastic. He begins slowly peeling the gel masque off his face.

ipnon

11 hours ago

“Looking good doesn’t affect your success” is one of those pernicious anti-advices like “elite university degrees don’t matter” and “family connections are worthless in our meritocratic society.”

mmmpetrichor

9 hours ago

I get all my skincare advice from hackernews.

oneshtein

9 hours ago

Which daily skincare you recommend to use?

deadbabe

7 minutes ago

Vanicream Vitamin C serum is 5% THD, oil soluble and gentle on skin!

JumpCrisscross

6 hours ago

A, B, C, D, E and water.

A is a light retinol. B is niacinamide. C is C. D you should be making from sunlight (or getting from supplements). E is E. Water is moisturiser.

Pretty much all evidence-based skincare comes down to providing these vitamins (plus water) to your skin.

WhereIsTheTruth

5 hours ago

or invest in a steam cooker and stop eating junk food?