hn_throwaway_99
5 days ago
I feel like "useful" and "valued" are very poor terms for the situations described in the article. I think a much better explanation is that just because you may excel in one role (and be recognized as such) does not necessarily mean you'll excel in another role. And heck, I think it's important to recognize these qualities and limitations in yourself. Calling this being "useful" or "valued" puts an emotional/moral spin on this that is unwarranted in my opinion.
If anything, in a business relationship, I think it's important to recognize that nearly everyone is just "useful". It may be the case that people think you'll be more useful in an expanded role, and thus will give you advancement opportunities. But even then, the business environment may change, and your skills may not longer be highly prioritized. Just look at lots of the recent tech layoffs that have snared well-respected, senior technologists. Apparently they were "valued", until they weren't.
eitally
5 days ago
I actually don't agree, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise. I posit that there's an employer expectation that every employee will be "useful", but utility is a fungible characteristic and the majority of managers and employers treat job descriptions of standardized roles just like that. Employees in those roles are susceptible to both replacement and career advancement, depending how "useful" they are, and how the company is doing.
That's an entirely different set of metrics than determining "value". Being valuable means being a trusted strategic voice to some portion of the leadership, and being recognized for contributions that go beyond (horizontally or diagonally) the employee's job description. In many cases, this value = trust relationship is evidenced by how frequently senior managers bring former employees with them when joining new firms, or how small & tight knit the community is for specialty roles/functions.
Lots of fresh grads and junior staff focus 99% on being useful, but career advancement beyond the first one or two promotions depends MUCH more on being valued.
mjr00
5 days ago
> Lots of fresh grads and junior staff focus 99% on being useful, but career advancement beyond the first one or two promotions depends MUCH more on being valued.
Yeah. I've seen a lot of ICs get stuck at the "senior developer" level rather than progressing to team lead, staff/principal eng, etc because they were too focused on being useful, by cranking through Jira tickets and features, rather than thinking strategic and higher level. This is a totally fine career choice, but there's only so far that "coding better and faster" can take you.
The counterintuitive part is increasing your valuableness often reduces your usefulness. As a mundane example, in early stage startups there may be one engineer who handles production deployments, schema migrations, and on-call duties. This is extremely useful! For this engineer to increase their value, however, they'll want to automate production deployments, teach others how to run schema migrations, and set up on-call alerting and schedules. By doing this, they become less useful, since others can now do their work, but more valuable, since they've been able to delegate responsibilities.
hn_throwaway_99
5 days ago
As another commenter mentioned, what you are describing is simply strategic vs tactical thinking, and IMO those are much more accurate, standardized, and less judgmental terms for the situation than "useful" vs "valued".
3acctforcom
5 days ago
Perception is reality. In my experience, if you're a "useful" employee to your management you are boxed into tactical. If you're "valued" then you are invited into strategic decision making.
It really doesn't matter how much strategic thinking you do if nobody cares.
mjr00
5 days ago
Yeah the article using "useful" and "valuable" isn't ideal, but I was sticking with those terms for discussion. I agree it's largely about strategic vs tactical thinking.
kmoser
5 days ago
I think you're twisting the original article's meaning of "useful" and "valuable." Useful means you are able to contribute meaningfully. Valuable means you are perceived as being able to provide value to the company (in this case by being useful), and are treated accordingly.
An engineer who does their job so well that they reduce everyone's workload by automating things and showing others how to do some of their tasks doesn't become less useful; in fact just the opposite, since presumably they will continue to need to do this as the landscape changes and not everybody will have their advanced knowledge of how to efficiently organize things at a high level.
mjr00
5 days ago
I didn't interpret the article that way.
> Being useful means that you are good at getting things done in a specific area, so that people above you can delegate that completely. You are reliable, efficient, maybe even indispensable in the short term. But you are seen primarily as a gap-filler, someone who delivers on tasks that have to be done but are not necessarily a core component of the company strategy.
I take this to mean "usefulness" is: you have a tactical role in the company, where you are able to perform necessary tasks. If you can perform them with little supervision, you are very useful.
However, "value" is eliminating those gaps entirely. Instead of being the on-call person who fixes every issue, which is undeniably useful, you fix the root causes so those issues don't happen. This does make you less useful, by definition, because fewer on-call issues means there's fewer reasons to keep you around. But assuming you also do an ok job of communicating what you've done, and your bosses aren't totally clueless, people will recognize this as valuable. The fact that you were able to identify a systemic issue and address it is what makes you valuable, and it will get you invited into broader technically strategic discussions. In theory, at least.
Again these are just my interpretation of useful vs valuable as far as the article's definition. I don't agree with the terms in a broader sense.
BobbyTables2
5 days ago
Yet, while these more valuable team players that think strategically may be inherently more “valuable”, they aren’t necessarily more “valued” either.
Who I have I seen that is more valued? H1B hires (QA > SW developer) and middle management. Even break room legal notices prove the former.
johnnyanmac
5 days ago
I feel stuck because my industry keeps laying me off. I feel useful, but it's clear that the powers that be don't value any of the studio, let alone a mere 5-10 year nameless fledgling.
Swizec
5 days ago
> Lots of fresh grads and junior staff focus 99% on being useful, but career advancement beyond the first one or two promotions depends MUCH more on being valued.
“People don’t remember who went to grab drinks on a Tuesday, but they’ll remember who helped them close a million dollar deal and get a huge bonus”
Give your coworkers superpowers and opportunities will flow.
asielen
5 days ago
"People don’t remember who went to grab drinks on a Tuesday, but they’ll remember who helped them close a million dollar deal and get a huge bonus”
Outside of sales and senior leadership I don't agree with this statement. Maybe it is just because I've reached a time in my life where I could care less about the hustle and just want a job where it can solve interesting problems for no more than 8 hours a day. And then get home to my family.
For ladder climbers sure, but at some point relationships are more important than dollars. (As long as you have a enough to live of course).
And if you are struggling to make ends meet and you get a pat on a back for deal support, that feels more exploitive than anything else. Yay, I helped make someone else money.
Being a highly productive, easy to work with, solution oriented coworker is a super power in it's own right.
Swizec
5 days ago
> but at some point relationships are more important than dollars
Sure. Who do you have a better relationship with: That engineer who drops everything they're doing to come help you with a gnarly bug when asked, or the dude who's always at happy hour but nowhere to be seen when you need something?
johnnyanmac
5 days ago
That can be the same person in a few of my cases. The outgoing ones tend to also be outgoing with helping others.
On the other end, there can be helpful but quiet people who makes me feel like I invaded their space when I ask a question.
fragmede
5 days ago
but who are you gonna go to first when there's a gnarly bug? the guy you had drinks with last night, or anybody else?
fragmede
5 days ago
I think the point is going for drinks gets you a pat on the back at bonus time but deal support gets you a more sizable bump.
stuartjohnson12
5 days ago
I think both of these things can be true at the same time - the issue with a lot of utility-based value is that it often comes in the form of unsustainable heroism. My capacity to feed back interesting thoughts about product and strategy in domains I'm familiar with is probably greater than your capacity or desire to consume them, but my capacity to do various forms of high-precision grunt work (set up configurations for clients, misc. project work, ship XYZ feature into the product) is much easier to consume and ultimately overload.
Closing that million dollar deal as a sprint might be memorable, but being the go-to configurator for Azure cloud services isn't, and the difference between heroic level systems management and mediocre button clicker requires hard squinting if you're non-technical. Hell, I'm technical and would struggle to tell the difference just because IT isn't usually my domain.
And if the person you're working with has no appreciation of what an average performance is, any mistake will be seen as a defect even if what you're doing is otherwise heroic.
johnnyanmac
5 days ago
Businesses may remember that. I'm not sure if people will. That million dollar deal probably isn't making you money directly in this time and age. At best it keeps you from being laid off.
Meanwhile, I still do remeber the coworkers I viewed as helpful, or even just generous and friendly.
yibg
5 days ago
It seems the difference is just the degree of usefulness / value. Rather than being different terms, I think they're just different spots on the spectrum. What's the difference between someone being "useful" vs "valuable", one is 6/10 the other is 8+/10 (made up numbers).
A sales person that consistently hits quota is useful. A rainmaker that keeps bringing in million dollar deals is valuable.
IggleSniggle
5 days ago
An Ops contributor who saves the company millions in operating costs, however, might be extremely valuable, but may or may not be valued.
rowanG077
5 days ago
Definitely, it's up to the contributor to also demonstrate their value if it's overlooked for whatever reason. Demonstration of value is almost never the same thing as value.
drdec
5 days ago
I think you have missed the subtle difference between "valuable" (which you introduced) and "valued" (which is the subject of the article)
hn_throwaway_99
5 days ago
I understand with what you're saying, and I agree for the most part. I just think describing this as "value" vs. "usefulness" is the wrong framing and unhelpful, and I can think of specific examples from my past that show this.
First, what you are describing in this comment sounds very much to me like following the adage "be loyal to people, not companies", and to that I totally agree. It's definitely critical in your career to build trust and relationships with folks you work with, and be dependable.
But for an example of why I think this "useful" vs. "valued" framing is wrong, I can think of a colleague at a previous company who I think was great at her role - she was a relatively junior (i.e. a couple years of experience) front end developer. She was responsive, implemented features well, and always demoed her work well and was extremely prepared. People also loved working with her - she was friendly, had very little ego, and had an almost disarming way of interacting with folks that would instantly defuse tensions on her team. I would work with her again in a heartbeat, and she was a great addition to her team.
At the same time, after working with her a while it became clear that her developer skills were limited. She was a great taskmaster, but the didn't have a great "systems-wide" way of thinking. She would implement features as requested, but when she would give demos I remember there were a bunch of times that there were semi-obvious questions ("Wait, how would the user get to screen A if they click button B first?") that she didn't bring up beforehand and did't consider in her implementations. I could trust her to implement individual components and screens, but I couldn't really say "Here's a description of the user problem, and the general direction we want to go in - how would you solve this?"
So if you asked me, I would say this person was a very valued person on her team. In her role, I think she was great. But I also don't think I'd expect her to perform well if she was asked to go in more "strategic and ambitious directions", as taken from the article.
strken
5 days ago
Sometimes you're an investment, sometimes you're insurance, and other times you're a luxury or even an impulse buy.
I think this is a better framing because it explains some behaviours that are otherwise baffling: if I'm hurting for cash, I'm going to stop adding to my savings before I cancel all my insurance, even if the expected rate of return is higher.
hn_throwaway_99
5 days ago
I really like this comment and I think your framing is the correct way to think about it.
For example, when I look through the pattern of folks in my LinkedIn network who have been hit hard by layoffs, it's clear to me that a lot of roles were "luxuries" or "impulse buys" during the ZIRP era, and so many of those roles have vanished over the past 2 years or so.
TimTheTinker
5 days ago
Often, especially in large businesses, which of these categories you fall into (investment, insurance, luxury/impulse buy) is more a function of which of these buckets your business unit is in than you as an individual.
I've always tried to avoid working for cost centers, where the business's goal is to reduce cost as much as possible while continuing to provide the necessary utility (like on-premise IT). Cost centers are most prone to offshoring and automation; and this is where the "AI threat" is most likely to materialize.
But if your business unit is viewed as an investment center (like an R&D center), you're part of a strategic asset and you're also (by proxy) viewed as an investment. Luxury and impulse buys also happen here a lot more often.
firesteelrain
5 days ago
"Just look at lots of the recent tech layoffs that have snared well-respected, senior technologists. Apparently they were "valued", until they weren't"
You are actually agreeing with the author here. Rephrase that to "Apparently they were useful, until they weren't"
They weren't valued.
I think the author is apt in their observation.
osigurdson
5 days ago
I think the author is over indexing on the value that the company brings to its customers and the value that an employee beings to the company - as if there is just a kind of lossless value roll up going on here. In reality, there are many humans in the mix - various gatekeepers with all kinds of objective functions that are not necessarily aligned with the overall stated objective of the company. The better a company is, the more aligned it will be, but still good to keep in mind the gatekeeper layers in an org and what their actual objective functions are.
mathgeek
5 days ago
I think it's worth differentiating between value (i.e. having value) and valued (i.e. the people who control your future at a company seeing value in your work, whether or not it reflects reality).
entropicdrifter
5 days ago
Isn't that what the original author is doing by using "useful" to mean "adds value" vs "valued" which means what you're saying it means in this context?
xp84
5 days ago
> layoffs that have snared well-respected, senior technologists. Apparently they were "valued", until they weren't"
See, I think it's more honest to say that 99% of employees are not valued at all, in that "the company" or top management actually care about what you think because you think it. People are kept around as long as the person 1-2 levels above them in management believe they have a positive short-term ROI, and everyone will be unceremoniously let go nearly instantly the moment they think they don't need you, whether you have just not distinguished yourself, or just basically at random when revenue misses dictate general cutbacks.
The author of the piece seems to place great personal significance specifically on his ideas mattering to the execs, but I think that may not be such an important thing to every personality type. I do mildly like being part of some 'strategic' conversations, but it's honestly more because I don't want the tech team to be blindsided by an impossible product requirement, and because I feel like I am good at identifying low-hanging fruit. But in terms of whether the company pursues one strategy or another at the highest level, that is hard, and you have to feel pretty bad when you make a bad bet. I don't think I need that at all to be happy.
hn_throwaway_99
5 days ago
I'll clarify, because, at least in my read of it, I am saying something very different than the author.
I was using "valued" in scare quotes that sentence you quoted - yes, I agree, the literal meaning of what I was saying is that they were useful until they weren't.
But, thus, I think it's important to understand that, at least from a business perspective, they were never "valued", and so I don't think it's helpful to think of things in those terms - again, I think that term implies a, well, value judgement that is inappropriate in the context.
By analogy, what I'm trying to say is similar to the difference between using the words "team" and "family" in a business context. I think using team is fine - teams want to win, and they cut people all the time if they don't have the right skills to help them win. Using the word "family" is simply bullshit, and it's just manipulation by business owners to try to get more work out of employees.
So my advice is to not ever think of yourself as "valued" in business. Remember that you are always just useful depending on the context of your role, your skills, and the current business environment.
phkahler
5 days ago
There's a distinction the author was making. If we ignore the words used "useful" and "valuable", can you see the distinction in the way a company may view people? I'm not sure you even think beyond "useful" and "even more useful". I'm not sure you see it as more than a difference in degree, when the author is claiming it's a difference in kind.
SAI_Peregrinus
5 days ago
"Valued" != "valuable". "Valued" is emotional, "valuable" is transactional, as is "useful".
robertlagrant
5 days ago
I think it could be the opposite: they were valued, but not useful.
baxtr
5 days ago
I think there is a difference though. I have seen people who are useful but not perceived as being valuable.
Key differentiator in all these cases was bad or missing communication.
Do good stuff and make sure enough people notice. If you don’t self-market yourself, others who are less useful to the company for sure will.
potato3732842
5 days ago
You're not nearly jaded about about the modern media landscape. A boring and "correct" (whatever that means in context) writing about a subject like this will never make it to the top of a comment based platform because it needs to be wrong or at least loosely worded enough the low denominator reader can engage with it in the form of commentary, further people can bicker with them, etc, etc. It's basically the modern version of a playwright 500yr ago designing a play such that the audience of illiterate peasants can participate, only it's high brow instead of for the masses.
munificent
5 days ago
The choice of words here also didn't resonate with me.
I think the distinction the author is really getting at is whether the business views you as fungible.
My couch is useful and provides value. It would be hard to relax in my living room without it. But if I had to pack up and move across the country, I'd probably ditch the couch and buy a new one when I got there. It's useful and valuable, but also replaceable.
I don't play it much these days, so my bass guitar arguably isn't very useful or valuable. But I've had it 20 years and have a lot of important memories attached to it. If I have to move, I'm not selling it and buying a new one.
Maybe another way to state it is whether you have more value to the company than your replacement cost.
cyanydeez
5 days ago
another way to look at it is: just because you're excellent in one role, does not mean there's an upgrade path at any given business to improve salary+expectations.
Some businesses structure this intentionally, to avoid the upward progression of salaries, and other businesses just arnt churning through projects and clients quick enough to expand to fit the upward momentum of their talent.
Recognizing the real constraints on your value to a business model is important to not get stuck in the backwash of business value.
throwaway201606
5 days ago
The piece is good but I think the primary segmentation is not 'useful' vs 'valued', it is strategic vs. tactical.
The author actually realizes this but did not nail this idea to the church door as part of his manifesto.
>Being valued, on the other hand, means that you are brought into
>more conversations, not just to execute, but to help shape the
> direction. This comes with opportunities to grow and contribute
> in ways that are meaningful to you and the business.
The first part is not being 'valued'; this is being a 'useful strategically'.The second part - "opportunities to grow and contribute in ways that are meaningful to you and the business." - that is being 'valued strategically'
> Being useful means that you are good at getting things done in a
> specific area, so that people above you can delegate that
> completely. You are reliable, efficient, maybe even
> indispensable in the short term. But you are seen primarily as a gap-filler,
> someone who delivers on tasks that have to be done but are not
> necessarily a core component of the company strategy. “Take care
> of that and don’t screw up” is your mission, and the fewer
> headaches you create for your leadership chain, the bigger the rewards.
The first is not being 'useful'; this is being a 'useful tactically'.The second part, "Take care of that and don’t screw up” is your mission, and the fewer headaches you create for your leadership chain, the bigger the rewards." is being 'valued tactically'.
So, the theory is every member of staff is dropped BOTH a 'useful' and 'valued' bucket for tactical work and for strategic work.
ie: - one can be useful or not useful for strategic or tactical work or both - one can be valued or not valued for strategic or tactical work or both
A couple of counterpoints:
1. You can,unfortunately, be useful strategically and not be valued. Think about the hachet man every leader of a large organization has - the guy who does the layoffs. That slot is useful strategically but can be filled by almost anyone - it is not valued by the org.
2. You can, fortunately, be useful tactically, useless strategically, and be be very very valued in an organization. Best examples of this are folks who are very very good at running operations. Think about a good truck dispatcher, or a 911 operator or an air traffic controller. 90% of their job is effective tactical execution - dealing with this emerging situation right now effectively and efficiently. That is highly valuable to organizations.
Also note that every org needs strategy people and tactical people for long and short term.
One is not better than the other. They are just different.
And there are lots of very highly paid tactical roles, sometimes better paid, that are more challenging and more interesting than any strategy role.
These tend to be "do this or fix this thing right now efficiently and effectively" jobs.
For example, almost any practicing medial role is a tactical one - ER doctor (fix this sick person right now) or controllers for real time stuff - concert and live TV producers (make this thing look good right now), air traffic controllers (keep these planes safe right now) etc etc.
So, net net, pick you spot - tactical vs strategic or both, useful vs. valuable or both - get good at it and then may the odds always be in your favor.
m463
5 days ago
I remember people I've worked with over the years that have resigned because they were never going to get onto another project and grow while they were so "useful" on the current project.
Sort of like holding people who were successful working on the OS from a decade ago, and not letting them work on the current OS.
kordlessagain
5 days ago
It is the dumbest thing ever for a company to evaluate someone as not useful based on their perceived skill set. What makes someone not useful is their tendency to show up to get shit done or not, nothing else.
varispeed
5 days ago
In a corporation, everyone is “useful” - that’s the bare minimum for staying on payroll. Even those doing meaningless work are sometimes kept just so competitors can’t poach them. Big tech overhires deliberately, parking talent in BS roles to block rivals.
The notion of being “useful” is ironically useless. The only real measure is your pay: if the company pays you well, they consider you important. If you think you’re useful but your compensation doesn’t reflect that, you’re being exploited - and all that talk of “belonging” and “usefulness” is just corporate mind games to keep you emotionally captive.
dfxm12
5 days ago
I agree that I think "value" might be the wrong term in the essay. I think there is an emotional/moral spin on "value" though. Too many workers are overworked and underpaid. If someone is undervalued, the answer isn't to give them more responsibilities (without a commensurate bump in pay). The answer is to pay your workers properly. The article touches on this, but doesn't make the connection.
Beyond that, in my experience, when trying to get a bigger role, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Some managers are not useful or just as overworked as we are, so they can't take the step back and properly evaluate who is ready for more responsibility. We have to advocate for ourselves.
9rx
5 days ago
> Too many workers are overworked and underpaid.
The inherit friction means that some workers will sometimes be overworked and/or underpaid, but workers do not remain in overworked/underpaid situations for long. Given the real-world constraints, the exact right number of people are in that situation, not "too many".
> the answer isn't to give them more responsibilities (without a commensurate bump in pay). The answer is to pay your workers properly.
If the workers show up, you know you are paying them properly. That's not the issue here.
Trouble is, at some point you run out of things to buy. Those who continue to seek more money beyond that do so because they are able to leverage it to increase their social value. — But, in the case of the person in article, they were still failing to establish social value even with more money than they knew what to do with. Even more money than that wouldn't have helped them. They needed to find a new situation that was able to allow them to find the social value they were after.
robertlagrant
5 days ago
> Too many workers are overworked and underpaid. If someone is undervalued, the answer isn't to give them more responsibilities (without a commensurate bump in pay). The answer is to pay your workers properly
I think this is very hard to measure, particularly from our outside perspective. I understand it may be more of a worldview axiom than a fact, and will get a chorus of nods in a group conversation, but I think it should be tested more like a fact than an axiom.