abathologist
a day ago
I think we are going to be seeing a vast partitioning in society in the next months and years.
The process of forming expressions just is the process of conceptual and rational articulation (as per Brandom). Those who misunderstand this -- believing that concepts are ready made, then encoded and decoded from permutations of tokens, or, worse, who have no room to think of reasoning or conceptualization at all -- they will be automated away.
I don't mean that their jobs will be automated: I mean that they will cede sapience and resign to becoming robotic. A robot is just a "person whose work or activities are entirely mechanical" (https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=robot).
I'm afraid far too many are captive to the ideology of productionism (which is just a corollary of consumerism). Creative activity is not about content production. The aim of our creation is communication and mutual-transformation. Generation of digital artifacts may be useful for these purposes, but most uses seem to assume content production is the point, and that is a dark, sad, dead end.
cameldrv
a day ago
I've personally noticed this as a big trend. For example, I had become more and more reliant on my GPS in the car. I've not really been the outer control loop of the vehicle. An automated system tells me what to do.
I recently got a running watch. It suggests workouts that will help me improve my speed (which honestly I don't even care about!). If you turn it on it will blare at you if you're going too fast or too slow.
When you use any social media, you're not really choosing what you're looking at. You just scroll and the site decides what you're going to look at next.
Anyhow recently I've been reducing my usage of these things, and it's made me feel much better. Even navigating the car without the GPS makes me feel much more engaged and alive.
Ultimately one of the core things that makes us human is making decisions for ourselves. When we cede this in the name of efficiency, we gain something but we also lose something.
Marshall Brain wrote an interesting short book about this called Manna.
empiricus
a day ago
For GPS, I start by looking at the overall route, and compare with potential alternatives. Then during the driving the GPS just manages the local details, I still have some understanding and agency over where to go and how to get there.
liugongqx
17 hours ago
I am obseesed comparing different routes from GPS for EACH trip. Long or short. Bragging to my wife how much time I saved.
She doesn't use GPS. Guess what, she alwayes beats me.
My Guess: 1. Algorithem does not favor me 2. Monitor GPS adds unsensible distraction and pressure which reduces action smoothness compare to brain driven actions.
immibis
20 hours ago
I start by looking at the map. I go in the direction of the place I want to be. If I want to know the technically fastest route then I let my device calculate that. I don't always take that route. It's an assistant, not a boss. It's more interesting to walk down different streets sometimes. (And while I'm preaching to Americans, it's also good to walk down streets sometimes. It breaks away a few layers of abstraction that you have when driving.)
Looking at the map actually helps you learn the city layout. As of right now (literally as I'm typing this) the train was delayed, so I chose to get off at the next big station before everyone crowds on, and walk the rest of the way. I can do this without checking a map because I know where it is and where I am, because I don't let the machine think for me.
I don't drive (non-car-worshipping cities are amazing) but I do this when walking and also with train routes. I don't memorize the bus routes, since the train is better and has fewer routes, so I also sometimes ask my device for a route if I think there's a faster bus route than train (usually not the case).
bartread
19 hours ago
> I've not really been the outer control loop of the vehicle. An automated system tells me what to do.
That’s not really true, is it? Who tells the GPS where you’d like to go? You, I imagine. You don’t just follow GPS instructions unless you’ve first told it where you’d like to go. And, indeed, unless you tell it, it won’t give you any instructions (though it might suggest common destinations for you to choose from).
You are still the outer control loop of the vehicle: you’re just thinking at the wrong level of abstraction, or thinking of the wrong loop as the outer loop.
ajuc
15 hours ago
It's not a loop. It's the main() function.
The loop is driven by the system and that makes a lot of difference.
bartread
11 hours ago
> It's not a loop. It's the main() function.
No it isn't. I regularly use my car to travel to multiple destinations in a single "session".
The reason I use GPS is because the apps built on top of it often know about traffic issues along the way - even those that have recently developed - as well as normal patterns of traffic flow of which I may not be aware, or may only have a tenuous grasp of (and don't want to waste a lot of time studying).
But be in no doubt, when the machine creates a route for me it is very much doing what I tell it to do, not the other way around. I am in control at all times and will sometimes deviate from the prescribed route or choose a different destination along the way (e.g., if I've forgotten an errand I need to run that I remember and which could be conveniently achieved).
I just don't buy this argument that the car or the GPS system is the one in control, because it's simply not the case.
boppo1
a day ago
>When you use any social media, you're not really choosing what you're looking at. You just scroll and the site decides what you're going to look at next.
Not necessarily. I'm into a very particular sort of painting and I have been totalitarian with Instagram about showing me that content and not other stuff. It works splendidly as long as I'm consistent.
Thanks to Instagram, I have been introduced to tons of painters I would not have been otherwise.
bonoboTP
a day ago
Is it better to be introduced to tons of painters vs fewer but in more detail? Or being told about a painter by someone in person vs by an algorithm?
In the 90s you only had certain songs if you knew someone who had it on cassette and you borrowed it and put it on your mixtape. Throughout the interaction, you also got initiated deeper into the culture of that thing in person.
I also notice that families rarely sit together nowadays to look through vacation photos. The pictures are taken, but people either don't have time to sort them and curate them. When film had a price, you only took fewer ones but it was more intentional. Then the fact that you only saw the picture once you were back at home, generated excitement that you could share and relive candid moments. Now people upload stuff on Instagram but it's intended to a generic audience, much unlike browsing through an album on the couch.
throwaway2037
21 hours ago
> In the 90s you only had certain songs if you knew someone who had it on cassette and you borrowed it and put it on your mixtape.
I knew lots of people who recorded 120 Minutes on MTV and listened to college radio.bonoboTP
21 hours ago
I meant the niche long tail stuff, since the commenter mentioned "tons of painters I would not have been otherwise". The equivalent in music would not be on MTV.
tsumnia
19 hours ago
> Then the fact that you only saw the picture once you were back at home, generated excitement that you could share and relive candid moments
Or you do like me and go see Interstellar 5 times in IMAX because the story was so good
throwaway2037
21 hours ago
> I'm into a very particular sort of painting
Can you share some of your favourites that you follow? This sounds interesting.guythedudebro
19 hours ago
Furries
vidar
a day ago
I applaud your consistency and effort to curatr your feed which is certainly technibally possible but i am quite sure you are the exception to the rule.
bsenftner
19 hours ago
More people need to read Marshall Brain's book "Manna"; the main character's thoughts examine and put to bed the majority of the sophomore thinking surrounding AI and it's impacts on civilization. Plus, it is one of the rare balanced views with both very positive and very negative outcomes simultaneously coexisting.
bsenftner
19 hours ago
BeFlatXIII
20 hours ago
The big benefits I find about modern satnav have little to do with route planning. That can be done with maps and dead reckoning. Where it shines are
1. Having knowledge that cannot be acquired ahead of time, such as traffic conditions
2. Providing a countdown timer until my next turn
cameldrv
4 hours ago
This is the paradox. The computer knows the best route, better than you do, most of the time. But, you are not in control anymore. You are not the one making the decisions, figuring out where the turn is, and whether you want to turn there or at the next intersection. All I can say is, try leaving your phone at home for a day and get where you're going without it. You'll probably get there a few minutes later, but it will feel completely different.
huijzer
a day ago
> When you use any social media, you're not really choosing what you're looking at. You just scroll and the site decides what you're going to look at next.
Yeah it’s crazy. I used to have a commonly held believe until last week. Then I started watching more videos in the opposite viewpoint and boom now my whole YT feed is full of it. I wish the feed would have sprinkled some opposing sides into the mix before last week. (Having said that I am appreciating individual content creator much more since people like Lex can decide to show both sides independent from some algorithm.)
nthingtohide
17 hours ago
I think this is nothing but how applied science realtime feedback loops should work. Earlier we used to study only planets, atoms and bacteria, now systems are studying us and guiding us to best outcomes.
cameldrv
4 hours ago
Yes. Clearly these systems are smart enough to know what the best outcomes are, and also they are the ones that lead to the maximum ad revenue for the site.
abathologist
12 hours ago
The surrender is largely voluntary, and is especially enabled by those who think "the systems" somehow know the "best outcomes".
globular-toast
a day ago
For road navigation it might be worth seeing if your country has a proper system in place and learning how to use it. In the UK, for example, there is a simple "algorithm" to get you where you need to go. The signage is hierarchical starting from motorways and trunk routes and descending down to primary and secondary local routes. So to navigate anywhere you go via trunk routes and follow the signs to the nearest trunk destination beyond where you are trying to go. Then as you get closer you should start to see your actual destination appear on the signs as a primary route. Once you learn the system it's really quite possible to navigate by yourself anywhere.
The nice thing is you won't end up routed down some ridiculous difficult road just because the GPS says so and it calculated it would save 0.2 seconds if you were somehow going at the speed limit the whole way. Your brain includes a common sense module, and it's usually right.
robrorcroptrer
a day ago
But then again you are relying on an information system to navigate.
js8
21 hours ago
Another example is free market ideology. This was a question I posed to libertarians - how can you claim that free market enhances human freedom, when it always tells you what to do in the name of efficiency?
norome
20 hours ago
I don't think the claim is that it enhances human freedom necessarily, rather: by giving more freedom to i.e. set prices than people will use their particular knowledge of their area of concern to set those prices correctly.
It does coincidentally align with John Stuart Mill's reasoning for why Liberty is fundamentally necessary: that only at the level of the individual is it possible to know what is good and right for that individual.
bonoboTP
a day ago
> When you use any social media, you're not really choosing what you're looking at. You just scroll and the site decides what you're going to look at next.
This was even more true with TV, and especially before there were a million cable channels.
And it makes me think about the even wider time scale. A few generations ago, "the outer control loop" was also not in the individual's hand, but instead of computers, it was built on social technology. The average person didn't have much to decide about their lives. They likely lived within a few (or few dozen) km of where their ancestors did, in the part of town and a type of home fitting for their social class, likely doing the same job as their father, following a rigid life script, hitting predefined ritualized milestones. Their diet was based on whatever was available at that time of the year based on local production, cooked essentially the same way, as handed down by mothers and grandmothers. There was very little to the tune of letting their inner true self blossom through taking fun colorful decisions. They couldn't choose from some endless repository of stories. It was mostly a rotation of the local folk stories and the stories of the dominant religion.
Just wanting to "consume" and follow a script without the weight of decision making isn't some modern "disease".
The key difference is a new kind of fragmentation of culture (and the non-local nature of it). A long time ago, culture was also fractally fragmented, in a way where "neighboring" villages in a mountainous area would have their own dialects. Then with long-distance travel and electronic communication and media, globalization happened where distant parts of the world started to sync up and converge on some shared part of culture (of course fused with a continuation of the local one), everyone wearing T-shirts, listening to Michael Jackson and rooting for their football/soccer team. If you were dropped to some random place on the planet, you could likely converse with them about some fairly recent cultural cornerstones in entertainment and basic global news topics. But you still likely weren't "dropped" there.
Then the internet appeared and you could suddenly talk to all those people in other parts of the world (or just other parts of your country). But search and discoverability weren't so great so there was friction. You build communities around shared interests and compatibility of personality and it required effort and participation. Usenet, forums, IRC. But these isolate you from your neighbors and local connections. And people often explicitly wanted that. Nosy neighbors and know-it-all gossipy townfolk weren't such a rosy thing, people wanted to escape that to find peers who understand and validate them and can build a shared culture with.
In schools, subcultures already existed from the 70s and 80s onwards for sure, but they were few, like maybe 2 main camps or 3 or so, and information flow was slow therefore change was slow. Some new album of a popular band was released, then it was the thing for a long time, you didn't get an endless stream shoved in your face, you got the album and listened to it over and over. Today subcultures can't even be meaningfully counted because people follow personalized streams and come together in random configuration in streamer chats etc.
So basically, in the old internet model, there were lots of opportunities to choose from, but it needed effort to find it and to forge belonging. Then with more commercialization, things started to consolidate on fewer platforms. It made it easier for creators to reach a wider pool of users simultaneously, and made it simpler for users to just learn to use one or a few platforms. But this made it also easier to pick and choose your "content diet", buffet style. A little from here, a little from there, with little friction. But with so much on offer, how do you choose? Discoverability was still an issue until recommendation algorithms became strong enough to know what will drive engagement. Turn that up to 11 and you get the current day where even the front page grid of options is obsolete and you get a single linear feed again, which is like watching TV and channel surfing (pressing the "next channel" button over and over), except it's personalized and never boring.
Of course this applies to many other things as well, such as dating apps etc, which also feed you an algorithmic stream of options with the goal of maximizing profits for the company.
I don't think individual people's rejection of the trend due to "makes me feel much better" will make a dent. In many cases the use of these things isn't mere convenience but implicitly mandatory because other things are designed around the assumption that people use them. Schools announcing stuff to parents in Facebook groups. There's less traffic report announcements on the radio, because people use Waze and Google Maps that has real time traffic info and reroutes you automatically.
---
But then what might happen? I think we're seeing glimpses of it in the rejection of AI in certain circles of cultural thought leaders, which might grow towards a rejection of more tech. But instead of "makes me feel better", the only actually working mechanism will be social shame, similar to what often appears nowadays when some product turns out to have used AI. If it becomes established that you're obviously a loser if you Shazaam a song, or open TikTok, it could flip. Of course companies won't sit by watching idle. What's more likely is that the "rejection" of tech will just lead to other levels of meta-grift and engagement optimization. It may just fizzle out in a whimper of angry malaise and meta-ironic apathy.
emporas
a day ago
It is knowledge that gets automated, rather than reasoning.
I was thinking of the first solar civilization, which lives totally in space. Near a star, but not in a planet, and no gravitational pull anywhere. They build tubes 10 km long, a shot board is put at one end, and the players at the other end. They shoot darts at the board, and each shot takes 5 hours to reach the target. That's their national sport.
Problem is, I have never played darts, i don't know anyone who plays it, I will ask the LLM to fill in the blanks, of how a story based on that game could be constructed. Then I will add my own story on top of that, I will fix anything that doesn't fit in, add some stuff, remove some other stuff and so on.
For me it saves time, instead of asking people about something, hearing them talk about it or watching them do it, i do data mining on words. Maybe more shallow than experiencing it myself or asking people who know about it first hand, but the time it takes to get some information good enough collapses down to 5 minutes.
Depends on how you use it, it can enhance human capabilities, or indeed, mute them.
jen729w
a day ago
Oh turns out ChatGPT generates exactly the level of banality that one would expect.
https://chatgpt.com/canvas/shared/6827fcdd3ec88191ab6a2f3297...
I don't want to read this story. I probably want to read one that a human author laboured over.
visarga
a day ago
It would be a mistake to take the banality of current LLM outputs and extrapolate that into the future. Of course they are going to get better. But that is not the point - it is that in the chat room the human and LLM spark ideas off each other. Humans come with their own unique life experience and large context, LLMs come with their broad knowledge and skills.
aorloff
a day ago
There is a Borges short story written in the 1930s about "the Library" a supposed collection of all possible permutations of language, even misspellings and gibberish. In many ways, it is extremely prescient of AI.
To cut it short, in the end what Borges proposed is that the meaning comes from the stories, and that all the stories are really repetitions and permutations of the same set of humans stories (the Order) and that is what makes meaning.
So all a successful literary AI needs to do is figure out how to retell the same stories we have been telling but in a different context that is resonant today.
Simple right ?
bccdee
18 hours ago
> It would be a mistake to take the banality of current LLM outputs and extrapolate that into the future.
Imagine a chef, congenitally unable to taste or smell food, who has nevertheless studied a million recipes. Can they reproduce existing recipes? Sure, if they follow the instructions perfectly. Can they improvise original recipes? I doubt it. Judging by the instructions alone, the recipes they invent may be indistinguishable from real recipes, but this chef can never actually try their food to see if it tastes good. The only safe flavour combinations are the ones they reuse. This is a chef who cannot create.
LLMs are structurally banal. The only plausible route to a machine which can competently produce original art requires the development of a machine which can accurately model human's aesthetic sensibilities—something which humans themselves cannot do and have no need for, since we already have those aesthetic sensibilities built in.
This is the fundamental error of using an LLM as a ghostwriter. Humans don't only bring inspiration to the table—they also bring the aesthetic judgement which shapes the final product. Sentences written by an LLM are banal sentences, no matter how you prompt it.
imperfect_blue
10 hours ago
As an amateur home-cook, I find current LLMs incredibly useful as a sounding board for the on-the-fly recipe modifications - for allergies and food sensitivities, adapting preparation methods to available equipment, or substituting produce not available in season. It may not be able to taste the final product, but its reasoning on what's likely to work (and what isn't) has not led me wrong so far.
emporas
15 hours ago
Head over to groq.com, use the qwen-qwq-32b model, and take these examples [1] and put them at the start before the prompt. After that use the following command:
write chapter 1 for a new Novel in Progress, take inspiration from the example Novel but DO NOT Repeat Example. Add vivid imagery, in a dark comedy style. dial up the humor and irony and use first person narration. Fracture sentences and emphasize the unusual: use unusual word orders, such as placing adjectives after nouns or using nouns as verbs, use linguistic voice pyrotechnics, telegraphically leaned and verbal agility in plot building intention, reflection, dialog, action, and describe solar civilization, which lives totally in space. Near a star, but not in a planet, and no gravitational pull anywhere.
[1] https://gist.github.com/pramatias/953f6e3420f46f31410e8dd3c8...
techno_tsar
15 hours ago
This is unreadable slop.
emporas
14 hours ago
Depending on the story, the examples have to be adjusted. But of course, logical reasoning from humans cannot be replicated just like that, by the machines.
The real question is this: Suppose a person was great at reasoning the last 100 years, but with zero knowledge. That person might not attended any school, almost illiterate. But his reasoning is top notch. I don't know if you are familiar with Sultan Khan [1] for example.
With no formal training to absorb a lot of knowledge, that person is totally economically crashed. There is no chance of being competitive at anything, not involving muscles anyway. Now suppose that this person can complement his lack of knowledge with a magical knowledge machine. Suddenly he is ahead of a competition, involving people with 10 Phds, or doctors with 30 years of experience.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_Khan_(chess_player)
parodysbird
a day ago
This is basically a contemporary reframing of the core purpose of Renaissance magic. I suppose aspiring to be a 21st century John Dee from talking to some powerful chatbot of the future, rather than angels or elemental beings, does sound a bit exciting, but it is ultimately mysticism all the same.
WhyIsItAlwaysHN
a day ago
O3s story is not amazing but it sure is orders of magnitude more interesting than your example:
https://chatgpt.com/share/68282eb2-e53c-8000-853f-9a03eee128...
I don't think it's possible to generate an acceptable story without reasoning.
That is not to say that I disagree with you. I would prefer to read human authors even if the AI was great at writing stories, because there's something alluring about getting a glimpse into a world that somebody else created in their head.
randcraw
16 hours ago
> I don't think it's possible to generate an acceptable story without reasoning.
If I look back at any article, book, movie, or conversation that I liked, it always had this essential ingredient: it had to make sense, AND it had to introduce some novel fact (or idea) that led to implications that were entertaining somehow (intriguing, revelatory, amusing, etc).
Would this be possible without the author having some idea of how reasoning works? Or of what facts are novel or could lead to surprise of some kind? No is the obvious answer to both. Until I see clear evidence that LLMs have mastered both logic and the concept of what knowledge is and is not intriguing to a human, I foresee little creative output from any LLM that will 'move the needle' creatively.
Until then, LLM-generated fare will remain the uninspired factory produce of infinite monkeys and typewriters...
campers
a day ago
There is a huge focus on training the LLMs to reason, that ability will slowly (or not that slowly depending on your timeframe!) but surely improve in the AI models given the gargantuan amount of money and talent being thrown at the problem. To what level we'll have to wait and see.
jrvarela56
a day ago
My initial hunch and many answers in this site say ‘it’s boring I wouldn’t read that’.
There’s something to that: a good author synthesizes experiences into sentences/paragraphs, making the reader feel things via text.
I have a feeling LLMs can’t do that bc they are trained on all the crap that’s been written and it’s hard to fake being genuine.
But I agree you can generate any amount of filler/crap. It is useful, but what I got from GP was ‘ultimately, what’s the point of that?’. Hopefully these tools help us wake up to what is important.
8note
a day ago
hmm
ive been thinking that the knowledge isnt written down, so cant be automated, which also makes knowledge sharing hard, but the reasoning is automated
so, ive been trying to figure out patterns by which the knowledge does get written down, and so can be reasoned about
whyage
a day ago
> The aim of our creation is communication and mutual-transformation
That's a myopic point of view. Personal transformation is as significant, if not more. Production-oriented pastimes like painting, gardening, or organizing your stamp collection can do wonders for the mind. Their goals can be remaining sane in this crazy world, not producing the best painting ever, growing conversation-starting plants, or showing off your stamp collection. It's about doing for the sake of being.
techno_tsar
15 hours ago
I was thinking about how the point of reading isn't to literally 'internalize' what you've read. When you're engrossed in a piece of literature, you don't remember the specifics of the last page you read. What's more important is what the book is doing to your mind as you read -- it triggers a set of processes that force you to imagine and therefore form connections that you haven't made before, even if subtle and unrelated to the content of the book.
It's the same with writing. Writing isn't just a way to produce a good piece of writing, it's what the process of writing does to your brain as you think aloud, connecting words and sentences together. The same with painting, gardening, and organizing your stamp collection. The final 'product' isn't actually important. The significance lies in the process of immersion from the creator and the people who witness it.
abathologist
12 hours ago
> Personal transformation is as significant, if not more
I would include personal transformation. I think it should be clear that my point is not against "production-oriented pastimes" in any way.
> It's about doing for the sake of being.
Yea, this is totally aligned with my view too. I'd just note that being is not separable from becoming and changing.
I'm afraid you either didn't read me well, or I didn't write my intended sense well, or both. But I think we are pretty much in agreement in any case, assuming I understand what you've written here :D
fennecbutt
a day ago
99% if not 100% of human thought and general output is derivative. Everything we create or do is based on something we've experienced or seen.
Try to think of an object that doesn't exist, and isn't based on anything you've ever seen before, a completely new object with no basis in our reality. It's impossible.
Writers made elves by adding pointy ears to a human. That's it.
parodysbird
a day ago
To emphasize again part of the post above: "The aim of our creation is communication and mutual-transformation".
When I write a poem in a birthday card for my wife to give her on her birthday, very little of the "meaning" that will be communicated to (and more importantly with) her is really from some generic semantic interpretation of the tokens. Instead, almost all of the meaning will come from it being an actual personal expression in a shared social context.
If I didn't grasp that second part, I might actually think that asking ChatGPT to write the poem and then copying it in my handwriting to give to her is about the same thing as if the same tokens written but from genuine personal creation. Over prolonged interaction, it could lead to a shared social context in which she generally treats certain things I say as little different than if ChatGPT returned them as output. Thus the shared social context and relationship is then degenerated and fairly inhuman (or "robotic" as the above post calls it).
jonplackett
a day ago
Someone just the other day told me about how they used to have a group WhatsApp where they’d share these hand made memes. Just a bunch of guys photoshopping dumb stuff. It went on for years.
One day one of them discovers AI and post anything made with AI - initially it’s great, it’s much better quality than what they could photoshop. Everyone jumps on board.
But after a day or so, the joke is over. The love has gone. The whole things falls apart and no-one posts anything anymore.
It turns out - as you say - that the meaning - founded on the insight and EFFORT to create it - was more important than the anccuracy and speed.
parodysbird
a day ago
Oh yeah this is exactly how my group chats went. We still can post some good (in our context) memes and have fun, but not like an avalanche of poorly filtered slop. A joke for a group can still be crafted via an LLM when used judiciously and as intentionally as part of the bit. But by judicious it's important that the human is the one doing the sending and in the right moment, and so the human is still the one communicating.
When WhatsApp originally inserted their AI bot in the chats, it got very annoying very quickly and we agreed to all never invoke it again. It's just a generative spam machine without the curation.
Tallain
a day ago
This is an alarmingly reductionist statement that I cannot believe is made in good faith. If it somehow is, it's based on an abundance of ignorance that only highlights the importance of education.
Are you genuinely arguing that LLM output is derivative, and human output is derivative, therefore they're equal? Why don't you pop that thesis into ChatGPT and see how it answers.
bccdee
a day ago
No, that's not true.
Quick, what's 51 plus 92?
Now: Did you think back to a time someone else added these numbers together, or are you doing it yourself, right now, in your head? I'm sure it's not the first time these numbers have ever been summed, but that doesn't matter. You're doing it now, independently.
Just because something isn't unique, doesn't make it derivative. We rediscover things every day.
treebirg
21 hours ago
But I do know what numbers are. I've also done addition before, so I know what the steps are. The result of 51 + 92 is derivative from (at least) these two concepts, which derive from others and so on. Maybe I'm stretching the meaning of derivative here, but to me derivative doesn't mean strictly recalling something verbatim.
bccdee
18 hours ago
I do think you're stretching the meaning of derivative. At that point, what can ever be called original? Every idea depends on pre-existing concepts. Even Newton stood on the shoulders of giants.
BeFlatXIII
20 hours ago
> Just because something isn't unique, doesn't make it derivative. We rediscover things every day.
This is the argument I use to dunk on ranters who spam conversations with “How can you say Christopher Columbus discovered the new world when there were already people living there?”
bccdee
18 hours ago
In fairness, Columbus thought he had found India, even after other, smarter people had told him otherwise. You can't give him too much credit, especially given that he was considered a monster even by contemporary monsters like Isabella I of Spain, his sponsor, who founded the Spanish Inquisition and still thought his treatment of the Taino natives was unconscionable. She wanted him to convert them to Christianity, and instead he exterminated them.
griffzhowl
16 hours ago
Pointing out that we can mechanically apply an algorithm on novel inputs is possibly the worst defence of human creativity I can think of in this context.
MadcapJake
a day ago
> Try to think of an object that doesn't exist, and isn't based on anything you've ever seen before, a completely new object with no basis in our reality. It's impossible.
This is an outrageous thought experiment. Novelty is creating new connections or perceiving things in new ways, you can't just say "try to have eureka moment, see! impossible". You can't prompt engineer your own brain.
In fact, there's some research about eureka moments rewiring our brain. https://neurosciencenews.com/insight-memory-neuroscience-289...
Nevermark
a day ago
Go with 99.9%. But not 100%.
Someone imagined space and time could be a deformed fabric. That was new.
In minor and major ways, new ideas are found or emerge from searches for solutions to problems from science to art. Or exploration of things in new combinations or from a previously untapped viewpoint.
Most people are not looking hard for anything beyond what they know. So not likely to find anything new.
But many people try new things, or try to improve or vary something in a direction that is not easy, and learning something nonobvious and new is the “price” they must pay to succeed. Or a bonus they are paid for pushing through a thicket, even if they don’t succeed at what they set out to do.
pwndByDeath
a day ago
Not really new it came from observations or imagination of observed things.
Nevermark
16 hours ago
General patterns don’t actually exist. We create a pattern from multiple observations.
What is the point in saying there is nothing new,? So the word “new” is like “utopia”, with only a mythical aspirational meaning?
History has never stopped proving how inane such an utterly unsupported opinion is.
Just keep up with quantum physics. Constantly finding new strange counterintuitive effects that require intense research and explorations of combinations of ideas and imagination to envision. And then challenging invention of new highly artificially controlled conditions, not found in nature, to create.
Mathematics as a profession is all about discovery of new things (from exploration) and invention (from imaginative questions and quests).
Art produces new things all the time, but you have to have familiarity with art to see what is new. If all you see are materials and color you are not literate enough to read it. Anymore than a unique story is “just words”.
For that matter, in slower timescales, nature has never stopped creating new creatures with new attributes or behaviors.
Perhaps have you set your own sights much too low. Try doing something nobody has been able to do before, and sticking with it. You will discover something if you really do stick with it. Even understanding the barriers better than before reveals things, and forces new concepts into being.
mr_toad
a day ago
> Writers made elves by adding pointy ears to a human.
Now that’s reductionist to the point of being diminutive.
milliams
21 hours ago
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder. Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels. Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies. Elves are glamorous. They project glamour. Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment. Elves are terrific. They beget terror. The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning. No one ever said elves are nice. Elves are bad.
― Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies
BobbyTables2
a day ago
Hey, no need to get short!
We should try to be the bigger person.
That’s really the long and short of it.
TechDebtDevin
a day ago
Its not, thats why the term humanoid exists.
musicale
a day ago
> Writers made elves by adding pointy ears to a human. That's it.
Humans have been interested in supernatural beings for thousands of years. Their appearance is usually less important than their powers and abilities.
The word is present in Old English and Old Norse, and elves appear in Norse mythology.
DavidPiper
a day ago
That is a nonsense definition of creativity. The parent also wasn't suggesting - as far as I can read - that creativity is defined solely in the realm of the "truly novel" (or "isn't based on anything you've ever seen before").
All creativity is a conversation between our own ideas and what already exists.
Consider the unused soundtrack to James Cameron's Avatar [0][1], where ethnomusicologists set out to create a kind of music that had never been heard before.
They succeeded. But it was ultimately scrapped for the film because - by virtue of it being so different to any music anyone has ever heard before - it was not remotely accessible to audiences and the movie suffered as a result.
To argue that work is not creative because it is still based on "music" is absurd.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL5sX8VmvB8
[1] https://ethnomusicologyreview.ucla.edu/journal/volume/17/pie...
myko
a day ago
Incredibly interesting, thanks for sharing
jen729w
a day ago
> Try to think of an object that doesn't exist, and isn't based on anything you've ever seen before, a completely new object with no basis in our reality. It's impossible.
Pick up an Iain M. Banks book, my friend.
abathologist
6 hours ago
jonplackett
a day ago
I think you misunderstand the point. It’s about intention. Are you creating this thing for the purpose of transforming or communicating? Or are you just making it for some businessy reason.
Yes, elves are derivative, as was a lot of the Tolkien world in a way - being intentionally based on ww1 - but its intention was to create something beautiful and amazing and communicative and transformational.
vaylian
a day ago
> Try to think of an object that doesn't exist, and isn't based on anything you've ever seen before, a completely new object with no basis in our reality. It's impossible.
That's easy. The hard part is to explain it to other people, because we lack a shared background and terminology to explain it.
bowsamic
a day ago
You have fallen into the very trap he is criticising: you are entirely focussed on the product and how it differs from other ones, and have no sense of your individual journey of thinking being relevant
musicale
a day ago
> Everything we create or do is based on something we've experienced or seen.
I would add a couple of things to that. First, humans (like other animals) have instincts and feelings; even newborns can exhibit varying personality traits as well as fears and desires. It's certainly useful to fear things like spiders, snakes, or abandonment without prior experience.
Second, an important part of experience is inner life - how you personally perceive, feel, and experience things. This may be very different from person to person.
Andrex
a day ago
What really fascinates me is gender based toy preferences at <2 years old. Very consistent that boys like race cars and action figures, even though it's their first exposure.
(I do not participate in culture wars, this fact just straight up fascinates me as a non-masculine gay guy.)
socalgal2
a day ago
I'd be curious how we know they aren't exposed - 1 year is a long time to see TV shows, TV commercials, toys with pictures of target audience, picture books, etc...
gitremote
19 hours ago
Cars were invented in the early 1900s and the vast majority of human existence was in a world without cars. There cannot be an innate preference for cars, which were a very recent invention.
voidhorse
a day ago
It astonishes me sometimes how completely stupid and reductive some HN takes on arts and creativity can be. I am astounded continually at how we can produce humans who are so capable in one sphere of life and so ignorant and oblivious of others...yet all too willing to make dismissive claims about them...
Creativity is much more than the derivative production of artifacts. What the OP is driving at is that creativity is a process of human connection and communication—you can see this most clearly in the art of interpretation. A single literary work has an almost uncountable number of possible interpretations, and a huge element of its existence in the world as a price of art are the discussions and debates that emerge over those interpretations, and how they shape us as individuals, instill morals, etc etc. Quite a lot more than "making elves by adding pointy ears to humans".
Your post stinks of the very gross consumerist mindset the OP called out. The creation and preservation of meaning is about way more than the production of fungible decontextualized objects--it's all about the mediation and maintenance of human relationships through artifacts. The fact that the elves have pointy ears doesn't even begin to scratch at their actual meaning (e.g. they exist in a world with very big real problems that effect you and me too, e.g. race relations, and exaggerated features estrange these relations so as to make them more discernible to us and allow us to finally see the water we swim in).
If humans stop engaging with these processes, it's reasonable to believe that a lot of that semiotic richness, which is much of what, in my opinion, makes us human and not just super smart animals in the first place, will be lost.
krelian
a day ago
In full agreement with you on the flagrant incapability of a sizeable part of the HN crowd to understand and value of the arts.
Throughout history man has been celebrated and distinguished as the rational animal. As master of the earth this animal in our days dedicates its brightest minds to the continual increase of economic growth. Ask the rational man what is growth good for and after a few exchanges they perhaps will say that it ultimately improves our quality of life and even extends it. If might even allow the human race to flourish beyond earth and thus prevail long after resources on earth are depleted. But ask him then why is improving the quality of life a good thing at all? Is it just a meaningless cycle in which we improve the quality of life so that we can then improve the quality of life even further? No. Ask an individual human (in contrast to the ultra rationalist who thinks they represent the human race as a whole) what they work for, what they strive to achieve, what does quality of life ultimately mean to them and you will end up with happy times spent among family and friends. With meaningful moments listening to music, watching a film, reading a book. About time spent in creative endeavors that are totally their own. The rational animal in its hubris forgot what it thinks for and trapped itself in an endless cycle where the true meaning of being human is hidden from the sight of many.
But I think a wake up call is due very soon. The rational animal is about to discover the rationality it prides itself on was merely a sample of the true possibility. From the rational animal we have been relegated to another animal with some rational capability. As we slowly realize how futile are our attempts at thinking, we'll realize to our horror that the gift we are left with is the ability to recognize the futility and inadequacy of our attempts. Hopefully then we'll decide to retreat back into what truly makes us human, to what is ours, to what quality of life really means.
jofla_net
19 hours ago
I'm reminded of that My dinner with Andre monologue, and totally agree.
alganet
a day ago
I'm not so sure about it.
Maybe it's like that because there aren't many novel opportunities for varied experiences nowadays.
The pointy ear sounds trivial in our experience, but it is radically different than ordinary everyday thought when observed as a piece of a whole imagined new world.
Of course, pointy ears now are not a novelty anymore. But that's beyond the point. By the time they were conceived, human experience was already homogenized.
The idea space for what an object is has been depleted by exploration. People already tried everything. It's kinda the same thing as saying that is impossible to come up with a new platonic solid (also an idea space that has been exhausted).
Any novel thought is bound to be nameless at first, and it becomes novel by trying to use derivation to define an unknown observation, not as a basis for it.
NobodytheHobbit
a day ago
You're trying to expand the human experience instead of individual human experience which is really yours from your perspective and mine from my perspective if I can be redundant by enumerating. The frustration comes from the sacrifice of individual experience to this weird aggregated experience in the machine. It will push the capability of technology but does that service the aim of luxury made easy for the many to acquire as tech is supposed to do? What profit a person to gain the whole world but lose the very thing that makes themselves them? It feels systemically dehumanizing.
bowsamic
a day ago
> I don't mean that their jobs will be automated: I mean that they will cede sapience and resign to becoming robotic.
Exactly, there’s a huge section of humanity that actively wants to give away its humanity. They want to reduce themselves to nothing. Because, as you say, they cannot understand anything as having value other than economic artefacts
Aerbil313
10 hours ago
...The industrial-technological system may survive or it may break down. If it survives, it may eventually achieve a low level of physical and psychological suffering, but only after passing through a long and very painful period of adjustment and only at the cost of permanently reducing human beings and many other living organisms to engineered products and mere cogs in the social machine. Furthermore, if the system survives, the consequences will be inevitable: There is no way of reforming or modifying the system so as to prevent it from depriving people of dignity and autonomy.
- Industrial Society And Its Future, Ted Kaczynski (1975)