zeroq
13 days ago
Fallout 3 is the best example of uncanny valley phenomenon.
In original Fallout you enter a city which spans across four screens, repetetively uses the same set of limited sprites and is inhabited by some random moving pixels acting as citizens of which several have some interesting dialog lines.
The Fallout 3 seems similar at first, only employing a major leap in technological advancement - the city spans in every direction, there are animated and voice acted characters, and everyone is presented in cutting edge 3D technology.
But it all falls flat upon closer inspection. Every building is exactly the same. Dialogs are mundane and everyone has some sort of hiking accident where they took an arrow to the knee and even though the city has only 8 buildings its easy to get lost.
The reason is simple - in the original the story takes place mainly in your head, it's a mind's eye theatre, the game only gives you a broad outlines of the world and you are forced to fill out the blanks yourself. The game doesn't try to be realistic and leaves you a lot of space.
Once you start animating and voice acting your characters you quickly realize it's an endless money pit. The more lines you add, the cost grows exponentially, because you have to account for all localisation scenarios.
This is summed up very well (forgive me for not looking up reference and quoting from memory) by Bioshock lead who said in interview:
"At work if I have an idea we need to assemble a team - including programmers, modellers, scripters - and just to get a basic prototype that would give us the gist of what we were thinking it takes a month or more. Meanwhile, at home, I can relax after work, and in one evening session create a whole Doom campaign."
JFingleton
12 days ago
When I worked in the games industry, we would spent an incredible amount of effort, money and time on creating as realistic a world as we could muster out of the hardware. This would involve talented artists, animators, programmers and hardware engineers.
And then came Minecraft made by 1 guy rendering blocky graphics with basic animations. It was a real wake up call for a lot of developers, that success isn't driven by how realistic you can make a world, but something more fundamental. Most games with ultra-realistic graphics feel more like theme-park rides, where you have little or no affect on the game - as doing so would break the immersion.
After minecraft came out I quit the industry, and am far happier for it.
esperent
12 days ago
This take feels off to me.
Not denying it was an emotional reaction by people working in the games industry at the time, but it doesn't feel grounded in reality. It's like the makers of The Matrix feeling like they should give up because of The Blair Witch Project.
Minecraft and Blair Witch caught gold dust. You could make a thousand similar low budget movies or games - of equal quality - without ever replicating their success.
By contrast, if you make a movie or a game that's any way good with a 100 million budget and another 100 million to market it, you can be fairly sure of making profit. It's a different market. A Marvel movie, a Matrix movie, or a Fallout game, has to be actively terrible to fail to turn a profit.
anthk
12 days ago
Minecraft was a clone of another block game.
On interactivity and emergent gameplay, it predated MC for decades.
Elite, Nethack, Ultima IV-VII, Deus Ex, Arx Libertatis...
zimpenfish
12 days ago
> Minecraft was a clone of another block game.
Assuming you mean Infiniminer?
> On interactivity and emergent gameplay, it predated MC for decades.
Infiniminer was released in early 2009 and pretty much immediately inspired Minecraft (first public alpha mid 2009.)
pdpi
12 days ago
The point isn't "infiniminer predated MC by decades", but rather "immersive simulations and emergent gameplay predated MC by decades", as evidenced by the examples OP gave.
zimpenfish
12 days ago
Hmm, fair, I misread that.
somenameforme
12 days ago
There's another directly related issue here where Fallout 3 strayed. The original Fallouts have content that is not really constrained in any way, to put it mildly, and it captures the feel of a sort of dystopic hellhole really well. The gimmicky 50s happy-go-lucky style of the things like the music, iconography, etc plays a dramatically stark contrast to the rest of the world.
In the Fallout remakes, that happy go lucky style basically is the world. I mean it's still supposed to be a sort of post apocalyptic dystopia and you can do 'evil' things like blow up a town but even then it all still feels like an episode of Leave it to Beaver (further emphasized by the style that's no longer especially ironic), probably in equal parts in order to ensure mass [commercial] appeal and to abide modern ideals of political correctness in a scenario where that would be the last thing in play.
So the originals just completely drag you into their world, whereas Fallout 3 never really makes any effort at suspending your disbelief. The world is designed to be pretty silly and unbelievable, but has fun enough gameplay that it ultimately doesn't matter that much. I'm extremely curious how a more 'narratively faithful' remake, but with otherwise identical modern gameplay/graphics/etc, would feel.
mattmanser
12 days ago
Is that really true? Not being constrained?
All the isometric RPGs are very linear. You do act 1, then act 2, then act 3, etc.. What varies is how you complete them.
In the Bathesda style RPGs you can never touch the main quest and STILL play for 100 hours before you get bored. You can go in any direction. Some directions are 'level' checked by enemies, but you can sneak past them (e.g. death claws at the beginning in Fallout NV).
Games like BG2/BG3/Fallout 2/wasteland are much more constrained in what you can actually do. You have to clear the gob line camp to get to baldurs gate, etc.
The games are 'free' in very different ways.
I personally believe that the Bathesda 'freedom' of WHAT to do, with less choices in HOW to do it is much more RPG friendly than the on rails isometric 'freedom' which has very little choice in WHAT to do, just HOW you do it.
mrighele
12 days ago
> All the isometric RPGs are very linear. You do act 1, then act 2, then act 3, etc.. What varies is how you complete them.
You can finish Fallout 1 in less than 5 minutes, skipping essentially all of the act [1], so not necessarily that linear. But even if we discount this specific case, isometric RPGs are not that different from Bethesda style RPGs in structure, it is that the latter have very different budget and have a huge amount of side quests.
That said, OP was speaking specifically of Fallout 3, and compared to the following titles, I find it was quite more constrained... lot of time spent in tunnels, areas that were off limits until you could cross a certain metro... Fallout NV and Fallout 4 feel more in line with the original games.
orwin
12 days ago
Yes, Fallout4 get a bad name because it followed the New Vegas masterclass, but it is truly one of the best Fallout, and the Far Harbour DLC is in my eyes the best atmosphere of any Fallout game i've played (never played Fallout 1 though). Fallout3 is pretty bad though.
somenameforme
12 days ago
The reason Fallout 4 gets a bad name is similar to the reason that Microsoft's take on Shadowrun did. You're taking an extremely iconic RPG title and turning it into a shooter. The reason companies do this is because shooters sell best on consoles, but it doesn't make any sense - you end up with a game that's 'too shootery' for Fallout fans, and 'too RPGy' for Call of Duty fans. Fallout 3 was already in a bit of a grey zone here, but Fallout 4 went well beyond the pale.
I'm a huge fan of the series but could never bring myself to play Fallout 4 because of this reason. It just 'feels' wrong, even if it actually is a perfectly enjoyable game. Kind of like I wouldn't want to play a Call of Duty RPG. Actually that might be kind of neat lol. I guess it's just because I'm more into RPGs than shooters!
mattmanser
12 days ago
But you're in a tiny minority. It's actually viewed as one of the best games of it's time.
You get that right?
Can you acknowledge that both Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 would BOTH be chosen as some of the greatest video games of the last 2 decades? Unlike, say FO76 or Starfield?
I just don't understand the tiny, yet extremely vocal, set of Bathesda haters who constantly whine on about Gamebryo or 'real' fallout.
If it's so bloody good, why was Wasteland 3 fairly meh. There's your 'old' fallout. It was a mid-level hit. Entertaining, but not an all time great. If Bathesda is so bad at writing RPGs and Obsidian are so much better, why is Outer Worlds so utterly underwhelming and boring.
Like the actual evidence and reality is in front of your face. Making a great game is hard. Bathesda have done it multiple times. And Fallout 3 + 4 are somevof those great games.
If you don't like what they did with the fallout IP, just remember, you could have got another fallout brotherhood of steel.
tmtvl
12 days ago
Ah, Fallout 4, the only game I ever got a Steam refund for. Bethesda writing is so bad it's hard to believe their writers are actually literate.
Ekaros
12 days ago
Fallout 1 has in essence 2 arcs. Do one thing and then do other.
Fallout 2... Well you can just do anything the open world before final thing. Skyrim for example is infinitely more constrained, you have lot of pretty boring content to get to end...
somenameforme
12 days ago
I was more referring to the content of the story rather than the 'delivery' of the story itself, but like another peer mentioned the original Fallouts are even more open. Not only can you beat both the games in a few minutes (without cheating/glitching) if you know everything, but you can also similarly grab the best armor in the game, and so on. There are literally no constraints on you whatsoever besides knowledge that you (not your character) gains.
int_19h
10 days ago
Where would you put Arcanum, then? It has a well-defined arc that you generally have to follow... but you can skip a whole lot of it if you just know where to go on the map.
Also, the only RPG I know of where a character sufficiently skilled in diplomacy can win the final boss fight by convincing them to abandon their evil plans.
mattmanser
12 days ago
A rare Bethesda hater appears, quick, catch him!
Fallout 3 was magnificent, a wild commercial success and one of the greatest CRPGs of all times.
I'm sure Fallout 2 was good, I don't know because the control system is so bloody awful I couldn't get more than 2 hours into it.
It is acclaimed, but it's hard to replay it.
In today's world it is a bad game. Fallout 3 is still a good game.
Bethesda games are constantly replayed. Skyrim, fallout 4, etc. are all still on Steam charts top played lists.
Right NOW. 10 years after release
Fallout 2 is not.
You are on the wrong side of fact Vs fantasy.
avtolik
12 days ago
I have replayed Fallout 2 like 20 times.
I checked your claim about the steam charts. Currently the 30-Day Avg for Fallout 2 is 159 and for Fallout 3 - 376 players. I wouldn't call this a huge win. F2 is much older and the graphics are not aging well.
technothrasher
12 days ago
To be fair, those Steam stats are probably not reflecting reality. Fallout 3 doesn't work very well with current Windows versions, and so many of the Fallout 3 players these days (most?) are playing it in the New Vegas engine via Tale of Two Wastelands.
mattmanser
12 days ago
People are obviously going to play Fallout 4 now, it's Fallout 3 with updated graphics and mechanics.
20,000 players.
iamacyborg
12 days ago
More popular doesn’t necessarily mean better, a lot has to be left on the cutting room floor for something to gain mass appeal.
tmtvl
12 days ago
Fallout 3 was very successful. If selling many copies is the yardstick you measure quality by, it may well have been one of the greatest CRPGs of all time.
By other metrics it may fall a bit lower down the ranks. For example, the writing is quite bad (the water is thoroughly irradiated from a war that happened 200 years ago).
JKolios
12 days ago
>(the water is thoroughly irradiated from a war that happened 200 years ago)
This is what I always found grating about the writing in Bethesda Fallout games. Their writers think that the war happened last Tuesday and there are parts of the old world behind every other door. In universe, the war happened more than two centuries ago and humanity has moved on, in several strange ways.