I did the research a month ago.

Basically, from a "tired of US bullshit" perspective, if you can land a job in US, your best bet is to stay here as long as possible while saving as much money as possible, and ride it out. You will be better off financially if you have to move.

Otherwise, landing a remote job here with flexible work hours is the second best thing. You just have to basically solve for the Visa issue. My old coworker that managed to get a student visa and is basically enrolled in some university for like over 4 years now, so he can legally stay in the country, while working for US company, with his parents house in US as a permanent address.

Getting into FAANG and relocating can be done, but its not really that simple. You would have to find an opening overseas and be justified in moving there, or be senior enough to have a skip level manager approve it.

Otherwise, you just simply start applying for jobs. Denmark and Germany are your best bets. If you have a job offer, you can apply for a work permit, and then depending on the place there are different requirements for permanent residency, and then eventually citizenship.

I think it's really hard to compare. Salaries are much lower but quality of life (IMO) much higher. I worked at a few tech companies in France. Almost nobody worked outside of the standard work hours (9-6 with 1 hour for lunch). Most people at lunch together; often at a restaurant.

People didn't worry about 401Ks & IRA - it's expected the security system and standard pension from working is sufficient.

People didn't worry about saving for kids college - they are close to free; same for healthcare.

You have 6 weeks of vacation (one job I had gave 9 weeks); and it's normal to take 2-3 weeks off at a time. In the US, from my experience, people don't leave for more than a week, and most of the work they missed is waiting for them upon their return.

I almost relocated to Copenhagen for an SWE job a few years ago. I found it incredibly difficult to do the kinds of calculations you're doing, partly because there were non-financial factors that affected my financial calculations, and I had no way to project or predict what the outcome would be:

Would I receive citizenship, if I wanted it? If not, how much would I set myself back in the USA for retirement by paying into the Danish system? Currently the US and Denmark have some tax arrangements that slightly ameliorate this problem, but would I really want to stake my future on the durability and reliability of these agreements?

Would I have access to the prescription drugs I need? Fun fact: I wouldn't. Denmark's medical system generally will not prescribe Adderall for ADHD. They prescribe Ritalin, which doesn't work for me and causes me awful bouts of rage.

Just FYI, as far as I'm aware, you will not be able to get a FAANG job and then just pick up and move to another country. I know for a fact it wouldn't be permitted at my FAANG-ish company, for reasons having to do with tax law, employment law, and company policies regarding benefits and pay scale. And I'm not saying that my company would dock your pay but permit it. I'm saying they'd wish you luck and terminate your job. The only time it's a possibility, I think, is when you've been at the company for a while and your manager is willing to go to bat for you. But even then there's no guarantee that the company will accept the arrangement.

Move to The Netherlands, you'll earn anywhere between 50-100k depending on your exact skillset. Importantly we have a special ruling (the 30% rule) which means that you get 5 years paying basically no tax.

Housing is expensive - I watched Louis Rossman's videos a couple of years ago when he was looking for property around NYC and was shocked at the relatively low prices ($500k for large detached houses within 30-45mins commute of a major city at a time when it'd cost $700k for something similar here).

It took me a year to get to C1 level in Dutch when I came over 20 years ago but many people don't bother. You need that to get citizenship (after 5 years of residency) so I would recommend it. Cost me $3k at a Uni fast track (3 x 2 hour a week for a year) to do, most employers will be flexible to enable you to do it.

Depends where you go in Europe, but my strong impression is that the relative cost of living is very significantly lower than FAANG-like equivalent locations in the US (SF, Seattle, NY, etc).

Remote for the US is definitely still the best way to get the benefit of the difference though, and even with a lower paying US role in return that could be worthwhile.

Remote work visas for Spain and I think Portugal are designed for exactly that case and should fit the bill nicely if you have remote work. Alternatively if you can't get any, it gets significantly more complicated - finding a well-off-relative-to-local-cost-of-living local software job is quite possible in many many major EU cities, but will take time and require some adjustment en route (to local norms, paperwork, and languages) so the visa situation can be challenging. Doable but requires research and work.

1/3 seems underpaid. Good senior level devs in the DACH (Germany, Austria, Swiss) region can easily earn 85-100k€. Though you might need to get good networking, finding seniors is hard here, people stay at a job longer so most senior positions are not via application but referal or getting offered a job directly by someone in upper managment.

Generally quality of life and especially food is better in europe. Also people tend to get better work-life balance.

It's a matter of luck, connections and your own experience. While 180k in Europe is certainly very high end, 150k is not unheard of while 100k is quite mainstream. I know that official statistics show lower numbers but I speak from my own experience knowing how much my peers make.

There's certainly a gap between what companies show on the job ads and what they are really willing to pay for good candidates.

As pointed out in other comments, you get around 1 month of vacation. It is often possible to negotiate more vacation days in favor of lower salary or perhaps request a remote work. There's a lot of flexibility.

I live in the Netherlands. With 11ye 100-120k is doable BUT the job market here is a bit shaky right now, it’s not the most amazing time to look for a job.

My wife owns a small recruitment company and they help with visas and relocations here. Let me know if you’d like to get in touch.

Something I think is shocking in Europe compared to the US is the way no one is willing to work more than their contract states and people complain if they have to stay like half an hour later. People don’t work outside of their work hours in Europe

In the west part of the Europe, mostly around Benelux region you can safely land contractor job's with pay around 500€/700€ daily. In UK it's usually more. If I do the math for the higher end for lets say Netherlands, its numOfWorkingDays(255) * mdRate(700 = 178 500 € per year. Although I have no idea about their taxes.

Do not forget that the medical bills are for you as an American ridiculously low and you can live without car without any complications. Furthermore east are lower salaries but you cant land 70-80k contracting jobs with sometimes very little taxation.

potential visa workaround - incorporate abroad (i.e. self employed) and work remotely for US startup as a contractor (that is willing to work with timezone and culture differences to save costs). Even still there is a rate ceiling, startup jobs are gonna top out at 80k for overseas remote unless you have a distinguishing value prop, and non-startups don’t really have a good reason to hire overseas as the management/accountability issues really prevent this from scaling beyond early stage startup situations. my 2c as a US startup with overseas eng.

While the salary will be lower, the cost of living in Europe is much cheaper than in the US. You also get much more via the social services and safety net (Public transportation, public health care, better worker’s rights and protections). In Europe there is also a much better mindset around work and it’s place in your life. Leading to a much better work life balance.

"Europe" is far too general to say much. Even within the EU, you will find CoL differences in the order of 2-3+x, very, very different cultures, developer pay, developer jobs (do you want a high-octane unicorn job or work for a small outsourced IT service?).

Maybe you don't know and fair enough, but it feels like a good start to make it more firm. You mention somewhere you want to stick to English, I certainly don't recommend moving to the UK right now. I don't know much about Ireland, but it's worth expanding your search. English is the lingua franca of software anyway and for the job it will be sufficient anyway. But you would really need to learn some local language elsewhere. It's also not as hard as it sound, people in Europe (mostly...) are very supportive and patient with foreigners trying to learn the language.

FWIW, Poland is worth looking at and not mentioned much on this thread. So long as you don't mind living 300km from Russia+Belarus.

The Netherlands should be quite easy, as there is a special agreement between the USA and The Netherlands.

https://ind.nl/en/residence-permits/work/paid-employment-res...

From my experience in Germany exclusively (after being half a year in the US). I can't speak for other countries, which may have friendlier visas for contractors working for foreign companies (like Portugal).

- The salary issue you are already aware. - Germany is pretty straightforward for visas/permits, meaning the requirements are clear and if you fill them, you are in, no arbitrariness. - Companies don't need to do anything related to the visa (though many don't know that). You apply yourself once you have a contract and is pretty easy. There's also a work search visa for people with your experience level. - Last time I had to deal with the immigration office they were taking so long I had to pay a lawyer to expedite the process. - The Germans have a much more relaxed attitude to work. The stats I read said 30 avg sick days per year, which wouldn't surprise me. At my last job there was always someone either sick or on holidays. On the other hand I had a supervisor who every Friday after noon would go grab a beer and bring me another one. - Here was the first time in my life that I had time for real side-projects. - I have 10yoe and had been out of a job for the last year. Friends in other industries also had difficulties. IDK whether it is because of my specific skills or the not-so-good economic situation. - German culture is quite credentialist. This is in contrast to US culture (I guess anglo-saxon in general?) which I feel is a more pragmatic "show me what you can do". - Contractor work is not straightforward. You have to have your main clients in Germany to apply for a freelance visa. Once you are a permanent resident it is easier, but there are laws related to disguised employment contracts. In general everything related to laws and taxes is more convoluted.

My main concern would be the medium and long term outlook, mainly economic but social too. As someone else mentioned, the economy has been stagnant for years, not really growing since 2008. One has to wonder why, given the good infrastructure, huge integrated market, qualified workforce, and lower salaries and cost of living, which would be a competitive advantage, you see the US decidedly in the lead in the tech industry. This is not so much of an issue if you're not here for the long run, though.

If you are working at bigco and want to transfer to EU:

* You persuade your manager that this is okay and name the country.

* BigCo Inc. terminates you and BigCo Lda. or Srl. or whatever there subsidiary in that country makes you an offer letter.

* Your base salary in the new offer is 1/3 less, because "the cost of living" is less. If you ask them if you should do 1/3rd less work, they give you a puzzled look. If you ask them if they discount their prices to customers in low COL countries, they will get mad.

* The non-cash part of your compensation (stock, etc.) should not get impacted much, except that when you get taxed you'll pay more tax. Money isn't everything and you're obviously contemplating this move for other reasons.

* You will accept the offer and follow the immigration procedure of your new country. BigCo will have immigration lawyers they retain to ensure they can hire the candidates they desire, for example you.

* You will chill for a little time, maybe a month, while the immigration process goes through.

* Congratulations, you now have a work visa, benefits, and all the privileges that being a legal employee in that country confer upon you.

Slightly worse are arrangements in which you work through a subcontracting company, don't get benefits, and/or have to fight for the visa yourself.

The other ideas you are contemplating probably don't work, and if you don't understand why you should ask a chatbot not HN.

One underappreciated aspect is, if you are a U.S. citizen you are required to pay taxes on your worldwide income. So, in the EU, I file two tax returns. One to the country I live in, and one to the US.

In practice there's a tax treaty that let's the u.s. recognize the taxes I pay where I live and don't have to pay the u.s., but I still have to file. It gets so complex I pay someone who specializes in u.s. and "e.u" tax situations.

Sort of related question: If you are a dual citizen between US/EU, and have made the move to the EU from the US, how was your experience?

Zurich, Munich, couple other cities often have higher salaries. Switzerland can also have low taxes which can boost your income, too, if living there interested you.

TLDR; visit this link: https://immigration-portal.ec.europa.eu/index_en

American living in France for 5 years. Previously worked in NYC startups earning a similar salary to you. Made lots of mistakes that, if I had known better, I could've saved myself some time and money. That being said, I am doing far better financially even if I make less on paper and I just bought my first place (unthinkable in NYC). I work as a software contractor technically, though I work full time for an American company.

Your first question is what your longterm goal? Permanent relocation or experiment for a few years? In other words, where are you planning to retire? You want to make your social security payments to the correct country. Your tax paperwork will stress you out for the first few years if you don't figure that out.

In either case, I'd suggest you try to keep your American job and go fully remote. You don't need a work visa if you don't work for a European company. But if you move permanently, you should do the paperwork to replace your American employment contract with a European contracting company like I did. It's more paperwork but earning an American salary in Europe gives you a significant purchasing power advantage even if you pay more in taxes. The real killer is the paperwork. European bureaucracy sucks.

If you don't keep your American job, you should apply for jobs before moving ideally. Most EU countries have reasonably low bars for skilled worker visas. Spain and France I know are very simple. The Netherlands are a bit more confusing. Regardless, you roughly need an offer of 50 000 € and a college degree to get one.

EDIT: saw discussion about housing shortages. France has tons of housing (https://pap.fr). I had a two-bedroom apartment with a balcony in Paris proper for 1 900 €.

If you have any European ancestry, it's worth checking if you qualify for citizenship. I have Irish citizenship because one of my grandfathers was born there.

https://visaguide.world/europe/eu-citizenship-ancestry/

(disclaimer: I haven't verified the accuracy of that list)

Following.

Which EU country specifically?

8 YoE Principal SRE, I found a large firm in the Netherlands to sponsor and pay for me and my wife's relocation from California. My TC is around ~260k EURO a year. The job market is a lot smaller, but because of this any firm that needs good up market skills will pay 2x-3x local dev salaries. I'm on an HSM visa, which has a path to permanent residency in 5 years. We mostly moved because we wanted to travel more, the quality of life improvement over living in the Bay Area is massive.

Like others have said, you have to wait for a position to open up in your target country. Compensation is often tied to location even domestically with FAANG. I don’t think most tech companies are going to let you keep San Francisco (hypothetically) compensation when you move to a country where they are paying much less.

Even the mid size cloud consulting company I work for (full time) hires from 6 different countries and the compensation structure is different for each. When I did work for Amazon remotely, comp was also based on location. I’ve seen the same from talking to people at Google.

Besides, most FAANG jobs require you to be in the office these days.

Why do you want to leave? I understand if you think America is in a long term decline. But my first thought is that as long as I am working and not dependent on the government for part of my livelihood - social security and Medicare - I should be fine.

I have seriously thought about and talked to my wife about moving to either Costa Rica or Panama once we retire.

My second thought is what is going to happen in Europe once they have to beef up their military spending as the US has shown to be an unreliable partner.

I'd keep the job and look for places with remote worker visas. Or start a company and get an entrepreneur visa. Being locked into a single company isn't great, in any country. Also Europe's pretty small, you can live in a small town, halve your living costs and still only be 30 minutes from the city. Or just live in a tier 2 city which will still have a good lifestyle.

Look at levels.fyi for an idea on how much you would make in Europe. Last time I checked an L5 at Amazon Berlin makes about 100k. (dont bother converting because right now EUR == USD, the GBP-USD rate is a bit higher)

The best of both worlds is if you get a contractor role based in the US with a US salary and live in Europe. You will still get the higher tax rate and as a US citizen pay taxes in the US. The Netherlands has a way to self-sponsor your visa, it's called DAFT.

What's the reason that you want to relocate to Europe? It's not looking good right now. Our economies have been stagnant for years, morale is low, division seems to increase, and there is a lot of cognitive dissonance regarding Russia and the new US presidency.

taaxes?