Show HN: Kreuzberg – Modern async Python library for document text extraction

193 pointsposted 5 days ago
by nhirschfeld

76 Comments

diarrhea

5 days ago

I’m curious about the async aspect of this. I was under the impression PDF processing like OCR is purely CPU bound. OS file I/O interfaces are sync, so async does not help. With GIL, so single threaded Python, I can’t see how async improves performance for the PDF use case. Only parallelism helps, and concurrency doesn’t. When would it yield back to the event loop when it’s busy number crunching?

nhirschfeld

5 days ago

Thanks for asking!

It's both. The OCR part is ofc CPU bound, but the entire text extraction involves reading files, or writing and then reading files.

Without async, these simply block.

As for efficiency - if you're working in an async application context you have to "asyncify" these operations or suffer the consequences.

skavi

5 days ago

in that case, what’s the deal with extract_bytes being async? i’m not incredibly familiar with python, but i’d expect a “byte string” to be in memory.

nhirschfeld

5 days ago

You still need to write it to file to process it via pandoc/tesseract etc.

There are alternative options to tesseract ofc.

LoganDark

4 days ago

> You still need to write it to file to process it via pandoc/tesseract etc.

This sounds... I guess Pythonic? Sheesh.

nurettin

5 days ago

It just litters perfectly reasonable python code with async/await. Maybe they are preparing for something we don't know, like a parallel async executor which can be set up to use native threads without changing code and somehow protects you if it detects shared state.

hermitdev

5 days ago

Caveat: I have not looked at the neither the API nor the implementation of Kreuzberg, this is purely from personal work.

Even with CPU bound code in Python, there are valid reasons to be using async code. Recognizing that the code is CPU bound, it is possible to use thread and/or process pools to achieve a certain level of parallelism in Python. Threading won't buy you much in Python, until 3.13t, due to the GIL. Even with 3.12+ (with the GIL enabled), it's possible (but not trivial) to use threading with sub interpreters (that have their own, separate GIL). See PEP 734 [0].

I'm currently investigating the use of sub interpreters on a project at work where I'm now CPU bound. I already use multiprocessing & async elsewhere, but I am curious if PEP 734 is easier/faster/slower or even feasible for me. I haven't gotten as far as to actually run any code to compare (I need to refactor my code a bit with the idea of splitting the work up a bit differently to account for being CPU instead of just IO bound).

[0] https://peps.python.org/pep-0734/

impoppy

4 days ago

Will it lock the GIL if you use thread executor with asyncio for a native c / ffi extension? If that’s the case, that would also add to benefits of asyncio.

diarrhea

5 days ago

> It just litters perfectly reasonable python code with async/await

Yeah. As an API consumer I would not expect a PDF API do IO, hence be async. Have the library be sans-io, the interfaces sync and callers from async code handle IO on their end, offloading to IO threads.

Async is also referred to as “best practice”, but it’s just a tool, for specific use cases. And I say that as an “async fan”!

That said, perhaps it’s easier nowadays to just do async by default, as you say. The real world is async anyway, so why not program closer to that reality.

nhirschfeld

5 days ago

thats why Kreuzberg also exposes a sync API for you to consume.

PDFBolt

4 days ago

Async is great when you truly need it, but it can overcomplicate things when misused. Having both sync and async options, seems like the best approach. Lets devs choose based on their needs rather than forcing one paradigm.

ismailmaj

5 days ago

It is probably not worth the complexity currently but considering they are using small local CPU models for OCR like tesseract, if they add the support of reading files on the web then I wouldn't be so sure of the CPU bound aspect.

pseudony

5 days ago

Interesting, thanks for sharing :)

Can you speak to how this differs in PDF extraction from, say, pymupdf, pdfplumber, unsloth and so on ?

I know the async part is probably a thing, but when building a RAG I would be brutally focused on the quality of text extraction. Have you noticed an ability to do better than others ?

nhirschfeld

5 days ago

So, for PDF we need to distinguish between two types of text extraction-

1. Text extraction from a searchable PDF.

2. OCR.

For 1. Kreuzberg uses pypdfium2, which is a python binding for pdfium - the chromium PDF engine. In this regard Kreuzberg has top notch performance. Much faster than miner.six, PDFplumber etc.

Note PyMuPDF has top notch performance but also an AGPL license, and is almost unusable because of this without paying.

For 2. Kreuzberg uses Tesseract, which is very solid. Performance is good, and Kreuzberg utilizes async worker processes to optimize concurrency.

OCR though is a complex world. If what you need is to extract text from standard text documents (broadly speaking), Tesseract and hence Kreuzberg are a good choice.

If what you need is things like layout extraction, hand writing recognition, complete bonding box metadata etc. than you need to use an alternative - commercial one probably.

ilaksh

5 days ago

PaddleOCR layout works, and so do some open source large language vision models

tomcam

5 days ago

What is a RAG?

nhirschfeld

5 days ago

Retrieval Augmented Generation. Its a class of techniques for generating content using LLMs. I'd recommend Googling this.

tomcam

5 days ago

Was going to reply indignantly that it's hard to google rag and get that answer when I read your comment. Then I did, and it was the first result.

Apologies!

maxnoe

4 days ago

I understood the comment as "Google <the long version I provided> to get more info"

rednafi

5 days ago

Gotta write something named Wedding, Schoneberg, or Pankow. Kewt names.

a012

5 days ago

Don’t forget Neukölln

martin_balsam

5 days ago

Garbage collect module (cfr. Neuköllner for the past 12 years)

socksy

5 days ago

Not sure I would trust a garbage collector called Neukölln

rednafi

5 days ago

But multicultural. So I don't mind.

nhirschfeld

5 days ago

I'm actually considering another library with optional API called `Kreuzköln` - probably without the Umlaut!

madduci

4 days ago

What about Mitte, Steglitz or Charlottenburg?

mohsen1

5 days ago

can you import it in python with ö in the name?

flessner

5 days ago

Moabit - maybe a name for a new crypto currency?

a3w

4 days ago

Eight moabit to a moabyte? More like some moabit to a charlottenburg, if I remember the geography correctly.

ant6n

5 days ago

Python Zoo, Python Tiergarten...

rednafi

5 days ago

Python dependencies are tear garden for sure.

jacomoRodriguez

5 days ago

Mitte?

herval

5 days ago

Too gentrified for Python

jenadine

5 days ago

Neuhohenschönhausen?

rednafi

5 days ago

Imagine having to import this or some nightmare like Hausvogteiplatz or Schlesisches Tor. Not German, and I wanna cry everytime I have to pronounce these :v

BjoernKW

5 days ago

> Schlesisches Tor

Quite a few years ago I saw this translated as Sileasian Gate on Google Maps (IIRC), which - for some reason - reason just brought up "Tannhäuser Gate" in my mind right now.

user

5 days ago

[deleted]

eamag

5 days ago

Love the name!

OCR was discussed here lately several times (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42952605 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42871143), and some cool projects like https://github.com/Future-House/paper-qa?tab=readme-ov-file#... are using PyMuPDF. My experience with Tesseract is pretty sad, it's usually not good enough and modern LLMs are better.

nhirschfeld

5 days ago

Thanks, I'll check these links.

In my tests I found tesseract quite good for regular text documents. For other kinds of texts it's not great.

As for using models - there are some good small language models as well, and of course LLMs.

I sorta feel though that if one needs complex OCR, or a vision model for layout, one should opt for either a commercial solution that abstracts the deployment and GPU management, or bake ones own system.

For most use cases involving text documents though, my subjective opinion is that tesseract is sufficient.

FlyingSnake

4 days ago

Can’t wait for non-Germans to butcher that name.

RNCTX

5 days ago

Awesome.

I modified a library card software (Blacklight) into a searchable PDF industrial manual system awhile back on a one-off basis. It couldn't go any further than a contract project that delivered the source code because it's hard to do anything programmatically (at the time) to a PDF without Ghostscript.

I've often thought of rewriting it with Python (and Postgres, to get rid of Solr or Elastic as the search backend), maybe now's the time...

I trust you long enough for a second look because I ctrl-f'd the readme and found "pdfium" so I know I don't have to retread old ground in your github issues about how there's really only a couple of ways to parse a PDF with a semblance of reliability, lol...

(for anyone else reading this getting started with documents.. Adobe and Chrome are really the only PDF rendering libraries that work. PDF.js aka Firefox has always been broken, and Apple's is problematic as well, in both cases rearing their heads in terms of incorrect word / letter spacing).

maleldil

5 days ago

The API is pretty nice and easy to get started, but I couldn't get good results with parsing scientific paper PDFs, unfortunately (including OCR). Are there plans to use other backends? Docling works alright, and LLMs like Gemini Flash are interesting too.

nhirschfeld

5 days ago

Yes, there have already been several suggestions here for other backend etc.

You should try using a different PSM to see if you get better results.

If it's scientific texts specifically, look at grobid

taosx

5 days ago

I know this is contrary to popular opinion but I wish people would slowly move away from python. I've wasted so much time in understanding, integrating or just making python projects work that at this point I'm just avoiding anything python. The best python projects that I can confidently say are high quality are the ones where a lot of the code is c,c++ or rust and python is just a high level wrapper.

d0mine

5 days ago

"python is a high level wrapper"

is a python usage as intended. Being executable pseudo-code, glue language is its selling point. When has it ever been any different.

I'm not sure C++/Rust projects are easier to understand though.

madisonmay

5 days ago

pypdfium2 is a great choice and a solid piece of software!

You might want to look into https://github.com/VikParuchuri/surya as an alternative to tesseract. Yes, it's associated with a commercial company, but as you long as you aren't a company with 5M in ARR or $5M in funding it's free to use.

pzo

5 days ago

this still seems GPL. another OCR worth considering is easyOCR [0] (apache license). AFAIK there is not layout detection but they do provide bounding boxes and support many languages also detecting text on many different world objects from images (signpost, etc)

[0] https://github.com/JaidedAI/EasyOCR

nhirschfeld

5 days ago

Yup, easy OCR is good.

My reasons for using Tesseract - easy OCR is larger, and it has a significant cold start.

It benchmarks better for many OCR tasks though, so I'm thinking of adding it as an alternative backend.

cdrini

5 days ago

Where did you find benchmarks for OCR tools? There have been so many OCR engines coming lately, I would love to see benchmarks!

umitkaanusta

4 days ago

Say I have a regular job that parses thousands of PDFs in bulk each day, how would kreuzberg help me?

btw, liked the name as a turk with a few relatives who lived in germany :D

richrichardsson

5 days ago

What led to the name choice?

nhirschfeld

5 days ago

That's my neighborhood in Berlin, which I love

jacomoRodriguez

5 days ago

amazing that half of the comments revolve around the name and the Neighbourhood. But I also clicked the topic because of the name, hello neighbour :)

jokes aside, really cool library. I'm currently working in a bigger project where we build a data lake with a wide variety of input sources and formats - this could be quite interesting for us.

nhirschfeld

5 days ago

Amazing, would be interested in reading your experience

richrichardsson

5 days ago

Ah, cool. I have a friend who lives there, so knew the name from that.

ulrischa

5 days ago

A really impressive feature list but a pretty heavy system level dependencies. On windows chocolatey is needed for them.

v3ss0n

5 days ago

We are building something similar and waiting my partners/clients approval for opensourcing it. Looks like we should join forces.

ideashower

5 days ago

Is there something like this for handwritten documents? I know newer models have been really good at handwriting transcription.

nhirschfeld

5 days ago

You'll need to use a different OCR engine. Look at easy ocr

odiroot

5 days ago

Do you have to watch your pockets when using this library?

nhirschfeld

5 days ago

lol ;).

But seriously, in 13 years living here, only one guy tried to pick pocket me.

tymm

5 days ago

I live in 36 since 15 years or so. Wasn't as lucky as you :)

m00dy

5 days ago

good naming, it feels so warm that I feel like home :)