rezmason
24 days ago
I think a more apt Borges story is 'Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius'— where a clandestine guild creates artifacts from a fictional world with the intent to deceive. The artifacts and the world they allude to carry such appeal to the masses, that they essentially trump the rest of society as a source of truth and annihilate all culture that came before.
schoen
24 days ago
"Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" as I understand it is more ambiguous about exactly why Tlön is becoming real in the narrator's world. Although there is a description in the afterword of such a guild having fabricated Tlön and some artifacts from there, the story up to that point seemed to take Tlön's metaphysics (in which the idea of a reality outside of our perceptions is considered absurd and impossible) pretty seriously, and the end of the story presents the situation as though the narrator's world is actually starting to work according to these principles. That could conceivably be for merely social-perception reasons, although according to Tlön's philosophy there couldn't be any such thing as "merely social-perception reasons" because social perception obviously wholly creates the real and only reality.
One could imagine that the guild called up something it then couldn't put down, but necessarily because people will or prefer it so, but somehow because the world, at least in the story, fundamentally could work this way.
The Wikipedia article discusses how confusing it is to understand the exact position of the story with respect to narrative truth, when the entire story is playing with the idea of what is real and what makes it real, as well as explicitly talking about the idea of fiction coming to life:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar,_Orbis_Tertiu...
qazxcvbnm
24 days ago
“The truth is that it longed to yield. Ten years ago any symmetry with a semblance of order — dialectical materialism, anti-Semitism, Nazism — was sufficient to entrance the minds of men. How could one do other than submit to Tlön, to the minute and vast evidence of an orderly planet?”
To me, this suggests rather clearly something similar to the OP’s interpretation. His drawing on of this story as allegory for our future occurs to me also as apt, and what I imagine as what Borges would have envisioned.
I also don’t quite follow your assertion that “social perception obviously wholly creates the real and only reality”, as social perception clearly varies by each persons’ distinct society - and anyhow even if considered on the level of the entire society, such a vast, sprawling perception could hardly be considered a singular “only” reality.
mistermann
22 days ago
"the real and only reality" would be better stated as ~"the small finite set of realities" (basically, each "tribe's" trained "take" on a given situation)...but even then, it is always possible to point out a trivial, causally unimportant object level difference such that one can miss the point.
Whether it is possible to circumvent this remains to be seen. Science has demonstrated it can to some degree, but it only covers a portion of reality.
gwern
23 days ago
Yes, I've always read the story this way as well. Borges may have not been interested in politics, but politics was interested in him, and he clashed with the Peronists (who fired him from the library) and repeatedly criticizes fascism and anti-semites in his nonfiction especially, and when he was writing this in 1939/1940, obviously all of this was quite imminent and topical.
So what I take TUOT as being is an exploration of the Idealism idea, where Borges puts a twist on it: the (dialectical) beliefs of the communalistic idealists of Tlön turn out to be true, on a certain level, because sufficiently compelling ideas and totalizing ideologies make their claims true. In that way, 'perception' becomes 'reality'. Only that which the ideology or state can perceive is real, and everyone is required to see like a state. (As much as he loved Idealism & Platonism, Borges always seemed to accept them only on a literary level, as applying to fiction and literature - there is indeed 'Man' in fiction, but there is not an actual Man in a Platonic region of forms, there is only a term 'man' we nominalistically apply to entities as convenient.)
That is, idealism is correct, in a sense, and the artifacts of Tlön become real because the savants of the conspiracy 'perceive' them (in their minds) and create them. And as Tlön takes over the world and gains power, it gains more realness and more of its artifacts come into existence - or people just lie about them or pretend they exist and falsify documents to accord with the new party line, and doublethink their way to 'seeing' the new labyrinthine reality forged by their fellow humans.
One might say that _hrönir_, especially, are a savage Orwellian parody of how things go in totalitarian dictatorships: the description of the experiments with the prisoners could as easily be set in Stalinist Russia or Maoist China, where the real story is that on the fourth try, after turning up only the equivalent of fishing for a muddy boot, everyone has figured out that, to satisfy the decrees from above, they need to buy or forge some ancient artifacts of unconvincing antiquity (and so no counter-revolutionary skeptics can be permitted near) and that is how _hrönir_ are discovered. The same way Lysenko manufactured agricultural miracles or innumerable falsifications like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learn_from_Dazhai_in_agricultu... became official policy, doubted only on pain of death.
Those who disagree and wish to maintain their integrity, can only retreat into quietism or 'internal exile', and spend their time on topics with as little political relevance as possible and avoid even publishing (except as samizdat), and let "a scattered dynasty of recluses take over", as it is too late to stop the Tlön revolution, and "the [whole] world [will] be Tlön".
whatshisface
24 days ago
I had always thought that the parts where reality was working according to Tlon rules was evidence that the author was being co-opted. Occasionally this happens in real life when political powers get involved in picking and choosing the outcomes of intellectual disputes - everyone's answers come out to corroborate a fiction, and the real guiding hand is never referred to.
The most widely known example is Lysenkoism. No supporter of that theory ever said they were fabricating data to please the apparatus. An example closer to the one in the story was academic support of Nazi "anthropology."
rezmason
24 days ago
We're two comments in and this is, so far, the most extensive conversation about a good Borges story I've had in my life, so kudos for that :)
EdiX
23 days ago
[flagged]
jancsika
23 days ago
> I think that trying to read political messages in Borges is wrong and disrespectful
You can say wrong. But for the record, you lost the credibility to use the word "disrespectful" when you termed all philosophers as "wordcels." :)
xenospn
23 days ago
[flagged]
user
23 days ago
flocciput
23 days ago
[flagged]
A4ET8a8uTh0
23 days ago
Caught my attention as well. Must be neologism assuming it originated from as a variant of incel, but here focused on deriding people getting their jollies out of the written word ( me:P ). Naturally, I might be wrong. Lets see if the author responds.
flancian
23 days ago
Not the author but: yes. This word emerged from online discourse a few years back about 'wordcels' vs 'shape rotators':
tessierashpool
23 days ago
that’s bonkers. “philosophers and other wordcels” not only insults Borges but the entire world of philosophy. the arrogance and the nonsense in that phrasing are both off the charts.
PittleyDunkin
23 days ago
Because western philosophy is not a place where you can find arrogant nonsense, right? Philosophers are some of the most arrogant people I've ever met. And I say that with great affection.
philosopher1234
23 days ago
Both can be true
mikrl
22 days ago
It’s internet youth culture bleeding into highbrow discourse.
An suitably brain rotted riposte to your complaints would be something like
‘Wordcels be sneething at rotationmaxxing shapechads’
and an image of a badly drawn wojak figure.
snapcaster
22 days ago
take a joke man jeez
heresie-dabord
23 days ago
> a clandestine guild creates artifacts from a fictional world with the intent to deceive
In coolly-detached economics terms, we could call it a large-scale business in assymetric information.[1]
But the abuse of assymetric information can lead to market collapse. And to judge from the state of modern society, the information collapse has returned people into Plato's allegorical cave of ignorance and fear. [2]
The intellectual catastrophe is the same, but the difference in the modern world is a) the enormity of what we have lost, and b) that people's caves are more comfortable and they watch the shadows dance on a wall of high-resolution pixels.
[1] _ https://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/asymmetricinformation.a...
bitwize
24 days ago
[An ad for Marvel Funko Pops appears, skippable in 5... 4... 3...]
laidoffamazon
23 days ago
Notably, Tlon is the holding company for Urbit - I credit them for having an apt name
xarope
23 days ago
First time I read TUOT, I was thoroughly confused. Both the article and this mention, has inspired me to pick up Borges again for the following few weeks of pre/post christmas reading!
To add to the recommended readings, I shall also mention "On Exactitude in Science"; I use this as an example of project plans where PMS try to be too detailed, and hence become useless.