TikTok CEO summoned to European Parliament over role in shock Romania election

11 pointsposted 7 months ago
by rbanffy

32 Comments

bradley13

7 months ago

Many European politicians are in denial. They fail to listen to their electorate, so the voters choose someone else.

Look at Germany, for example, where the old parties are desperately hanging onto power, in the face of surging AfD popularity. Or France, using lawfare against LePen.

Actually accepting democratic results? The voters don't like our policies, so we'll yield gracefully? Doesn't seem to be an option.

aurareturn

7 months ago

Is Tiktok the scapegoat for failed politicians now?

coldtea

7 months ago

Notice how a party winning in elections is considered "shock".

Who exactly gave the EU the responsibility to favor or disfavor national parties and election results?

aurareturn

7 months ago

Their voters are also spending time on media channels that they don't control.

It's not their propaganda, so it must be bad propaganda.

wkat4242

7 months ago

I wonder if it's really TikTok to blame here. In many other countries the extreme right is also rising. Even in my home country :( This goes deeper than TikTok or even social media.

xenospn

7 months ago

You don’t think the rise in populist politics coincides with the rise of TikTok? It is a global app, after all.

wkat4242

7 months ago

No not really. Not TikTok specifically. More social media in general.

Social media algorithms prioritise engagement and anger is a big driver for engagement. So it tends to serve polarising content that people get worked up about. Then they stay active on the platform and see more ads.

Social media is also a platform for Russian troll farms of course. Much more so than traditional media.

And there's factors unrelated to social media too. We're constantly in crises these days. This gets on people's nerves and the extreme right has an 'easy out' by denying these problems (eg climate change) or blaming it all on immigrants (eg jobs, housing issues).

But singling TikTok out overlooks the wider problem IMO.

protomolecule

7 months ago

>Social media is also a platform for Russian troll farms of course.

You meant American, right?

"By 2010, the military began using social media tools, leveraging phony accounts to spread messages of sympathetic local voices – themselves often secretly paid by the United States government. As time passed, a growing web of military and intelligence contractors built online news websites to pump U.S.-approved narratives into foreign countries. Today, the military employs a sprawling ecosystem of social media influencers, front groups and covertly placed digital advertisements to influence overseas audiences, according to current and former military officials.

...

Nevertheless, the Pentagon’s clandestine propaganda efforts are set to continue. In an unclassified strategy document last year, top Pentagon generals wrote that the U.S. military could undermine adversaries such as China and Russia using “disinformation spread across social media, false narratives disguised as news, and similar subversive activities [to] weaken societal trust by undermining the foundations of government.”

And in February, the contractor that worked on the anti-vax campaign – General Dynamics IT – won a $493 million contract. Its mission: to continue providing clandestine influence services for the military."[0]

[0] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-covi...

wkat4242

7 months ago

I wouldn't be surprised if America does it too but in this case Russia has a clear interest in promoting this particular candidate in Romania and America doesn't. Because it's a move to peel them away from NATO.

And Russian troll farms are also well documented. It's really a big part of their MO.

protomolecule

7 months ago

What do you mean by "wouldn't be surprised if America does it too"? Reuter's investigation leaves you in doubt?

>"Russian troll farms are also well documented"

Their effect is blown way out of proportion by Western media.

wkat4242

7 months ago

I didn't have time to read the link. But it's just irrelevant in this case. The US wouldn't manipulate to get this candidate in play because it's the worst possible outcome for them.

And tbh I doubt Romania would do this, as they're the other party in this, the US doesn't really have much to do with this. Romania doesn't really have the resources for troll farms. And they also wouldn't benefit this candidate.

protomolecule

7 months ago

It's worth the read. I've lost some of my illusions about the US while reading it.

This whole thread is about the perceived rise of 'populist politics' in 'many other countries', isn't it? Of course the US won't support pro-Russia populist in Romania. The US supports anti-Putin populists in Russia and anti-Russia and anti-China populists in other countries.

mytailorisrich

7 months ago

Not sure what you exactly mean by "populist politics" but in Europe the political landscape and its evolution is not caused by Tiktok or social media, it's caused by events and governments' policies over the last 60 years.

Specifically regarding Tiktok: It appeared in 2016, so is extremely recent and all the political forces in Europe predate it by far. 2016 is also the date of the Brexit referendum and Trump's first election so can't be "blamed' for either.

Regarding the EU I think what has been happening over the years is that the EU has been taking bigger and bigger steps to control speech and member states' politics, which is a worrying trend.

bradley13

7 months ago

This. There are actually two things that the EU is pushing, that the populace does not want.

One is regulating speech. I'm familiar with both the UK and Germany: in both, you can go to jail for insulting people, especially if the person you insult is a politician. They are expanding this to include ever milder insults, and ever more forms of speech. Absolutely dystopian.

The other is unregulated immigration. All of Europe is being flooded by young men from Northern Africa and the Middle East. Uneducated, unskilled, and often criminal. Yet the governments refuse to kick them out, or to prevent ever more from arriving.

The latter, immigration, is the single biggest factor driving the emergence of the far right.

archagon

7 months ago

Why do you think they are “often criminal”? How often?

bradley13

7 months ago

Look at the crime statistics in any European country that records the origins of the criminals. Immigrants are vastly overrepresented.

wkat4242

7 months ago

Of course they are but it's mostly a factor of social status, not heritage. Immigrants are often poor.

In the days before we had many immigrants we also had bad neighbourhoods but they were occupied by less well off local people. That also ended up in prison disproportionately much.

What drives this is social inequality.

I do think we should limit immigration from really poor countries somewhat though as it's just not sustainable. Prioritize real refugees. But crime isn't really the reason.

protomolecule

7 months ago

>The latter, immigration, is the single biggest factor driving the emergence of the far right.

That's ironic that Merkel tried to whitewash Germany's image as a former Nazi country by accepting millions of immigrants from Middle East and Africa, but also caused the rise German nationalists which is looked at with unease.

mytailorisrich

7 months ago

I think Merkel will go down in history has having made several catastrophic strategic mistakes, from nuclear to Russia to her response to the 2015 crisis in the Middle East (which may have titled the balance in the 2016 Brexit referendum, though it is unclear whether that is good or bad for Germany).

protomolecule

7 months ago

Yes, dropping Germany's opposition[0] to further NATO expansion under Bush's pressure[1] during the 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest was a catastrophic mistake.

[0] http://www.summitbucharest.gov.ro/en/doc_160.html

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Little-War-That-Shook-World/dp/023061...

aguaviva

7 months ago

This is a complete reversal of facts.

In fact the Bucharest Summit effectively quashed Bush's efforts and sustained Merkel's objection. Precisely to avoid pulling on Putin's braids. Indeed, she's so proud of her role in thwarting Kyiv's NATO ambitions that she can't stop bragging about it:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3e8y1qly52o

These ambitions were only substantially revived thanks to Putin's invasion of Ukraine in 2014.

At which point Russia's objections became instantly and irrevocably moot.

protomolecule

7 months ago

>These ambitions were only substantially revived thanks to Putin's invasion of Ukraine in 2014.

No, these ambitions were revived as the result of the American-backed coup that preceded Russian actions. That coup deposed a democratically elected president who opposed Ukraine's NATO membership.

>At which point Russia's objections became instantly and irrevocably moot.

Yes, it was the turning moment when Russia from objections turned to actions.

protomolecule

7 months ago

>This is a complete reversal of facts.

Here are the facts:

While NATO consisted of twenty-seven allies, Bush knew that the Alliance was divided right down the middle on the issue. He understood MAP was controversial but he also had many leaders from NATO allies, largely but not only from Central and Eastern Europe, coming through the Oval Office that spring urging him to push for it. In Bush’s mind, the final decision would boil down to a handful of countries and personalities who held the key votes—himself, Merkel, and Sarkozy—and who would be decisive in shifting the debate one way or the other. Bush also sensed a fault line in the German position. While Merkel and Steinmeier both opposed MAP, they did so for very different reasons. In Bush’s mind, Merkel’s thinking was not driven by concern over Russia, which meant she could still be persuaded to move. She, too, believed in the advancement of democracy and freedom and was willing to stand up to Moscow. He hoped he could personally appeal to those instincts over the heads of those in her government who focused, too much, in his mind, on Moscow.

<...> Adamkus stepped in to echo B_sescu’s point: “Do we agree that these countries should become NATO members?” Merkel replied, “We agree on that. Where we don’t agree is on timing.” The response of the three presidents was immediate and spontaneous: “Then let’s write that down!”

<...> Listening to Merkel, the Central and Eastern European leaders sensed an opening. NATO had never before stated explicitly that a country would become a member. None of them had ever had such a pledge. Most of their Western European counterparts, in all likelihood, would never have suggested this approach. They doubted if Merkel’s foreign minister would have either, but he was not in the room. If Merkel agreed, it could be a major step forward. Merkel then took out her pen and wrote on a sheet of paper: “We agree today that Georgia and Ukraine shall one day become members of NATO.” After studying the wording, B_sescu said: “Madame Chancellor, in our part of the world saying ‘one day’ means nothing and does not commit you to anything—it means never.” Kaczy_ski chimed in: “Absolutely.” Merkel agreed to delete “one day” <...>

<...> British prime minister Gordon Brown leaned over to President Bush at the Council table and half-jokingly said, “I am not sure what we did here. I know we did not extend MAP. But I’m not sure we didn’t just make them members of NATO.”

The question now was how Russia would react—and whether Putin would keep his promise to Bush not to create a problem at the summit.

<...> Moscow’s very public goal had of course been to ensure that Georgia and Ukraine did not get MAP. Technically, of course, NATO had not given it to them. But these countries had received something that was arguably better and stronger—an explicit political promise from NATO heads of state that they would one day became members. That had never happened before.

<...> The Russian president was even tougher on Kiev—describing Ukraine as an artificial creation and a state whose final formation was not complete. He noted that large parts of Ukraine were dominated by ethnic Russians and had been given to Ukraine by Moscow in an arbitrary fashion under Stalin, and asked, “Who can say that we do not have interests there?” The issue of NATO membership, he claimed, could threaten the very existence of Ukraine. “We should act very, very carefully. We do not have a right to veto [such a decision] and we probably don’t even want one, but I want all of us to realize, when deciding such issues, that we have our interests there as well.” At the press conference afterwards, Putin was also polite, but he was clear in reaffirming his opposition to NATO enlargement. Russia viewed “the appearance of a powerful military bloc” on its borders “as a direct threat” to its security, he said. “The claim that this process is not directed against Russia will not suffice,” he continued. “National security is not based on promises.” [0]

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Little-War-That-Shook-World/dp/023061...

aguaviva

7 months ago

It's a pizza slice out of the broader pie of facts, which you are mostly omitting.

Mostly in regard to what actually happened in the years following: Ukraine drifted even further from NATO aspirations, going so far as to pass a bill in 2010 precluding Ukraine's membership not only in NATO, but in any military bloc. Despite the hawks' attempt to mollify themselves with that backhanded proclamation at the very end -- overall the summit was unequivocally a setback to them, and a win for the pro-sanity camp.

Which a saner Russian leadership could have easily leveraged further via purely diplomatic means. But that's not the leadership we have in Moscow, and when it did choose to invade in 2014, it wasn't because of the NATO issue (or at least not out of any rational response to it).

easyThrowaway

7 months ago

It's an extremely common behaviour of new technologies entering the political space. Once we had electric megaphones and amps we got stalin, hitler and mussolini. Once television got ubiquitous politicians like Reagan and Berlusconi got elected. Now we have social networks and consequently Trump, Le Pen, AfD and Meloni started becoming relevant political actors.

coldtea

7 months ago

"Shock" as in "not the results we wanted".

user

7 months ago

[deleted]