DOJ proposal would require Google to divest from AI partnerships with Anthropic

83 pointsposted 16 hours ago
by donsupreme

92 Comments

waffletower

2 hours ago

This proposal seems like a powerful subsidy for Microsoft and OpenAI. Why can they partner while Google and Anthropic can't? It is strange to penalize a non-monopoly partnership like this.

chucke1992

an hour ago

I think with Trump's administration Google will have a tough time.

daft_pink

15 hours ago

does anyone else think that trump is going to nix this thing as soon as he takes office?

lolinder

14 hours ago

No. This case was launched by Trump's DOJ in 2020 [0], in conjunction with the Republican Attorneys General representing a bunch of states that Trump won handily this election. Trump's Attorney General Barr released a statement when they announced the lawsuit [1]:

> Today, millions of Americans rely on the Internet and online platforms for their daily lives. For years, there have been broad, bipartisan concerns about business practices leading to massive concentrations of economic power in our digital economy. Hearing those concerns, I have made it a primary commitment of my tenure as Attorney General for the Department of Justice to examine whether technology markets have been deprived of free, fair, and open competition.

This case has never has been a partisan issue. It was opened by a Republican DOJ and pushed through by a Democratic DOJ, and there's no reason to believe that the Republicans won't see through what they started.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Google_LLC_(2...

[1] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/statement-attorney-general-an...

daft_pink

35 minutes ago

Thanks, I’ve sort of assumed that all these things they’ve been announcing during the lame duck period were things Biden wanted to rush through that Trump has a high probability of nixing as tends to happen during the lame duck period when party control switches. I appreciate your insight on this specific issue.

kolinko

13 hours ago

oh wow, TIL. I assumed Trump would be against any government control of Big Tech

qeternity

19 minutes ago

Trump is against things that oppose him, and for things that favor him.

He perceives Big Tech as being an enemy, so he will use whatever tools available to punish.

UncleMeat

4 hours ago

Trump supports people who make him feel good and hates people who make him feel bad. He isn't pointing the DoJ at big tech. He is pointing the DoJ at people who make him feel bad. Trump thinks that YouTube (and Google more broadly) is unfair to conservatives and is full of whiney liberals.

You won't see consistent application of Trump's DoJ. It'll just be a hammer that he can swing at things he doesn't like.

It could even be the case that many of the things that he swings the hammer at will deserve it. But there will be similarly deserving people, groups, and organizations who get off scot free because Trump isn't personally angry at them.

dragonwriter

an hour ago

Trump is not particularly in favor of anti-trust policy in general, but he (and the GOP more generally, though Trump’s personal angle that of the GOP more broadly are slightly different though in general alignment) are very much for punishment of anyone in the information space that isn’t actively tilting in the direction he prefers, and is absolutely in favor of using antitrust law as a lever for that.

mvdtnz

13 hours ago

That's a weird thing to say. Trump has always been critical of big tech and favours breaking them up.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-tech-factbox/fa...

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/6/10/18659748/t...

toyg

9 hours ago

Trump is critical of big tech that doesn't help him - I'm happy to bet he will oppose breaking up X as long as Musk is in his cabinet.

Trying to describe Trump on a coherent ideological level is a fool's errand, like most strongmen he's just an opportunist.

wil421

7 hours ago

Why would X be broken up? When I think of Big Tech I certainly don’t think of companies like Twitter or Snapchat.

kelseyfrog

2 hours ago

The defining feature of the privilege is that it's arbitrary. If it was governed by a set of consistent rules, then it would be less effective at making him feel like he had power - the system, rather, would have power instead.

Workaccount2

2 hours ago

The point is that even if X was a dominating monopoly, it would be fine because Elon is on Trumps nice list.

Trump is a typical power whore who praises and protects those that kiss his feet, and admonishes and punishes those who don't.

This is the same game that all these self-interested power hungry people play.

robertlagrant

7 hours ago

Why would you break up X?

dmd

5 hours ago

To get two fabulous new companies, > and <. Or maybe ^ and v ? Or / and \ ?

robertlagrant

2 hours ago

I'm much more on board with this plan now. I want to see how many stock exchanges crash when I buy shares in <

llamaimperative

6 hours ago

More informatively: Trump was in favor of eliminating Section 230 protections for Twitter after they fact-checked one of his lies about election security.

Presumably he will now want to revoke Section 230 for non-Twitter companies.

leptons

13 hours ago

>and pushed through by a Democratic DOJ,

Suggesting that Merrick Garland is somehow a "Democratic DOJ" is kind of laughable at this point. He's a Republican. He's been dragging his feet going after the biggest Republican crook in history. Appointing Merrick Garland is one of the biggest mistakes Biden ever made.

s1artibartfast

43 minutes ago

He Was Obamas nominee for SCOTUS, Bidens selection for AG, and has been held in contempt by the republican House.

sigh_again

10 hours ago

Adorable how HN's in absolute denial over this comment and downvoting you.

Garland is a donator to the Federalist Society. Garland was a gift from Obama to the Republicans, trying to put someone who's right wing enough at the Supreme Court to appease the Rs. (And it didn't even work).

JumpCrisscross

15 hours ago

No. They’ll change the settlement terms, however, to probably include their priorities.

blackeyeblitzar

15 hours ago

I hope not. An important part of encouraging innovation in tech is to take power away from the megacorps that will otherwise use their capital and distribution channels and illegitimate practices (like bundling) to control everything and take all the gains. These actions from Lina Khan, the DOJ, the EU commissions, etc are crucial to creating a fair landscape for competition.

hobs

14 hours ago

Trump took net neutrality off the table, he only wanted to punish big tech for perceived slights or not supporting him enough, he's famous for putting people with no knowledge of the problems or experience with them in power managing them.

What exactly would be driving your hopes here?

lolinder

14 hours ago

Maybe the fact that Trump's DOJ started this lawsuit, backed by the Republican Attorneys General for 11 states that Trump won this year?

What exactly is driving you to think that he'd abort a mission that he and his allies started?

throw16180339

13 hours ago

Everything else is for sale in his administration, so I don't see why this wouldn't be.

rurp

3 hours ago

Well he started the drive to ban TikTok, but did a 180 after a single meeting with a billionaire who owns part of it.

I have no idea what Trump's DOJ will do with this case; I doubt he knows or cares about the case himself. I won't be surprised either way they go with it.

hobs

2 hours ago

Well the other posters answered, but in a nutshell because his record on consistency is non-existent.

Tax Reform, Immigration, Syria, TikTok, most of his original cabinet picks, he wanted to hang his vice president, Wikileaks and government leaks in general, the list goes on, his positions are about as fluid as any person I know.

anonandy42

8 hours ago

I had to create an account to ask you this point blank.

Why are you acting like taking Net Neutrality rules off the table is a bad thing? Have you read what is in the Net Neutrality rules? Or are you just regurgitating what the news and your favorite tubers of the time were telling you to do?

I read through 100 of the 400 pages, that was enough to make me sick. I was disgusted at the crap in there. A full 2/3rds of the rules I viewed were terrible. Many of those rules clearly existed only to enshrine the largest of players from ever being challenged or having any competition. I'm convinced anybody who speaks in favor of Net Neutrality is ignorant and hasn't bothered to read any of the guidelines contained therein. I can't be convinced that any intelligent free thinking consumer would ever want that drek to exist and am appalled that it has any defenders at all.

anonandy42

an hour ago

Go ahead and vote me down for abdicating for your better treatment. You can have true, real net neutrality without keeping competition out of it. But every vote down just tells me you love the colluding Comcast's and AT&T's customer service and prices.

I have a small internet company near me. Excellent service, lightning fast internet, a decent price. They have a limited number of available static IP numbers that can be granted to customers, I pay for one because I host a server for my needs, few customers actually need this feature. Under one of the first 20 rules (2015), they would have to provide total and equal service across the board to all customers. Innocent looking on paper, but impossible for the this small company to do realistically.

Another rule I recall (9 years ago, may be off a bit on this one) required a method for any government body or customer to call up and view a full summery of data usage at whim by logging into their account. This requires an incredibly costly and unrealistic implementation for a burgeoning company.

The point is that, taken alone, these rules seem altruistic and with good intent but when you imagine the requirements of hundreds of them, it is IMPOSSIBLE for new competitors to break into the field. The big boys already collecting your fees monthly can easily afford any thing being arbitrarily required.

That company of mine got bought out by the way. One of the big 4 bought them, it was a good 5 years. But we are going back to one choice of ISP in my area again. I fully expect the customers service to go to absolute shit and the cost monthly to slowly begin to rise.

hobs

42 minutes ago

I didn't vote you down, but having specific examples of problems with legislation you had is a much stronger argument, and is completely normal. The big boys are already creating a lot of negative competition and you are right that regulatory capture is really bad, more money = more influence in legislation.

However, the world of data caps and shitty service abounds very much because of the lack of SOME of these rules, and so the middle ground in my mind isn't destroy it all, it's fixing legislation.

Laws often have unintended consequences and trample on minority viewpoints, but while in the "destroy it all" framework we do get to reject some onerous rules, the vast majority of us get bent over a barrel, get more expensive service, and have no choice.

justinclift

7 hours ago

> I read through 100 of the 400 pages ...

Is this the 400 page PDF you're meaning?

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-15-24A1.pdf

That's the "Order on Remand" PDF link from this page: https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-releases-open-internet-orde...

Which in turn is the "2015: FCC adopts rules..." link on this page: https://www.fcc.gov/net-neutrality

---

There's a more recent 512 page thing too, though I'm not real sure where it fits in:

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-24-52A1.pdf

hobs

2 hours ago

Net neutrality ensures equal access, protects consumers from conspicuous data caps while no investment is put into infrastructure, prevents ISPs from throttling things they don't like, and increases competition.

You didn't actually say what rules are bad, and we'd probably agree "hey this rule in this law is BS" - that's very different than "net neutrality is BS"

Feel free to go into detail about why NN is bad for consumers, I think you will find many ardent defenders here.

xyst

14 hours ago

Google just needs to deposit a few million into an offshore account and this will disappear into the ether.

Then administration will throw so much “anti woke” shit and the average American will forget about it.

tjpnz

14 hours ago

If Sundar flatters him enough.

duringmath

15 hours ago

We can hope, his DOJ might amend their demands or the judges he appoints will overturn it on appeal if needed.

nine_zeros

14 hours ago

> does anyone else think that trump is going to nix this thing as soon as he takes office?

Depends on how much Google is willing to scratch Trump's back. Remember, Trump is a corrupt quid pro quo President. All he needs is something valuable in exchange for his corrupt powers.

ocdtrekkie

15 hours ago

So it's hard to say, Trump hates Google, Gaetz hated Google, I assume any Trumpist (I guess it's Bondi now) thinks Google is "unfair to conservatives". So it's easy to imagine letting Google reap the penalties of the existing case being an easy choice for them.

On the other hand, he's promised to remove Khan, Kanter, etc, and end antitrust enforcement. So someone may have to actively decide to continue as is, or change tack a bit.

The third concern of course is that Trump is a crook. He might not like Google but I'm sure neither him nor Sundar would have any qualms with figuring out how to slide a billion dollars in Trump's pocket to make the case go away.

chucke1992

an hour ago

It also does not help that Google is often seen together with various left leaning initiatives - like Google is one of the big proponents. Plus there was some backlash on Twitter over Youtube hiding Joe Rogan video and so on.

xrd

4 hours ago

Musk took over Twitter and then started xAI. Trump Social should announce they are going to be adding AI and resell Anthropic. They can take their 20% and everyone is happy.

Handy-Man

15 hours ago

Not really. He and his backers actually want this to happen to GOOG.

bg24

14 hours ago

Hope this gets nixed. It might be a relevant case back in 2020, but no longer a valid case now. From the wikipedia case:

"The suit alleges that Google has violated the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890 by illegally monopolizing the search engine and search advertising markets, most notably on Android devices, as well as with Apple and mobile carriers."

Where will be the search monopoly by Google in 2025? If search monopoly slowly evaporates, where will be the advertising monopoly?

ethbr1

14 hours ago

Google's entire argument against being regulated has been 'We're not monopolizing search, people choose to use us!'

The latter part also happens to conveniently be true when you buy all the available space that a competitor would need -- default placement in Chrome, Safari, Firefox, and Android.

You don't get to rig the game and then claim the results actually demonstrate everyone naturally loves you.

pcr0

13 hours ago

On the flip side, if default placement was eliminated and browsers asked users which search engine they'd like on first launch...I still believe most users would pick Google anyway and the main loser would be Firefox as search engine placement is the majority of their revenue.

Furthermore, ChatGPT reaching 100m users in 2 months also suggests that browser placement isn't the biggest factor into where users send their queries.

diffeomorphism

an hour ago

That is not "on the flip side" but "now that the damage is done".

eviks

12 hours ago

"Most" isn't relevant here, if share goes down from 90% to 51% - monopoly problem solved.

Same with the factors- ok, let it be the second-biggest factor, so?

Ferret7446

10 hours ago

You are being extremely optimistic with that number. I would put it around 80-85%.

Google search usage is not going to drop 50% just because it's not the default.

ethbr1

4 hours ago

> just because it's not the default

On HN, we probably drastically overestimate the number of people who change any default.

kweingar

2 hours ago

The success of the Chrome browser on desktop proves otherwise, no?

It's interesting that the argument is "nobody can compete with defaults" when one of the proposed remedies is to break off the part of the company that was too successful at competing with defaults.

eviks

10 hours ago

You misunderstand the meaning of that number, it wasn't a forecast

infotainment

14 hours ago

It really feels like the DOJ has it out for Google here. Apple's behavior is far more monopolistic, and Microsoft is no saint either.

TheDong

13 hours ago

I remain utterly confused how apple's rule that you can't link to a purchase page, and can't mention the 30% tax in-app, hasn't had its day in court yet.

Like, you can have a free app in the store, with a website where you can purchase premium, and then in the app have an "upgrade" button that just displays the error "You cannot upgrade to premium in the app" and hope users find your website.

You aren't allowed to have "You can upgrade to premium using our site, at https://site.com" message because if you can pay money on site.com, having that error message is seen as evading the app store tax.

In both of those cases though, apple did the same amount of work, so the justification you sometimes hear, that "30% is fair because you're paying for app store resources and apple to advertise your app", seems like it doesn't really apply.

Like, spotify is a perfect example of this. They don't let you upgrade on iOS because paying 30% to apple would mean they'd lose money on every sell (music has very thin margins), and spotify isn't even allowed to display a good error message because linking to their webpage, or mentioning the app store tax, would be against app store ToS.

And then apple music also exists, and ignores the 30% tax. It seems so blindingly obviously harmful to consumers.

This all applies to the google play app store too, but at least on the google play app store, there's no "thought crime" of informing your users they can go punch in a credit card on the web.

lolinder

5 hours ago

All of these things did have their day in court in Epic vs Apple. Apple won on most counts but lost on the anti-steering provisions:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Games_v._Apple

TheDong

3 hours ago

> lost on the anti-steering provisions

Also from that article:

> Apple allowed developers to include [information about other payment methods] but required that developers give Apple 27% of all sales made within seven days of being directed to these sites

That doesn't really sound like losing, a 27% penalty if you "steer users" is effectively the same as steering not being allowed.

lolinder

14 hours ago

The DOJ can go after more than one company at a time. And they are, in fact, doing so:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_(2024)

dazilcher

7 hours ago

The DoJ does not have unlimited resources, nor does it have unlimited time - see imminent regime and policy change.

Priority matters, and picking Google as the first high profile target is bizarre.

lolinder

5 hours ago

Why is it bizarre? Google has near-monopoly market share in search and in ads and Apple is the only thing standing between them and a monopoly on the browser. Furthermore, they've demonstrated anti-competitive behavior in all three markets.

The only market where Apple has a monopoly is the marketplace that they created for themselves, and a high profile case already tried and failed to use that definition of the market to argue antitrust. The DOJ is trying again anyway, but it made perfect sense for them to wait until Epic vs Apple was decided before starting work—why waste time on something that could be moot by the time they finish?

tivert

12 hours ago

> It really feels like the DOJ has it out for Google here. Apple's behavior is far more monopolistic, and Microsoft is no saint either.

As others have mentioned, the government can do more than one thing at a time. Here is a list: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/business/antitrust-.... Perhaps Google's case had just progressed faster, and perhaps it was more clear-cut or easier to prove.

Google's records retention policies were also over the top and perhaps hurt it: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/20/technology/google-antitru...:

> But Google has faced the broadest criticism for its actions, with the judges in all three antitrust cases chastising the company for its communications practices.

And they engaged in some pretty sketchy practices:

> If using the right words and deleting messages did not keep Google out of the courthouse, the company concluded, invoking the lawyers would....

> A message surfaced in the Epic trial in which a Google lawyer identified the practice of copying lawyers on documents as “fake privilege” and seemed rather amused by it. Mr. Walker said he was “disappointed” and “surprised” to hear that term....

> Last month, three advocacy groups, led by the American Economic Liberties Project, asked for Mr. Walker to be investigated by the California State Bar for coaching Google to “engage in widespread and illegal destruction” of documents relevant to federal trials.

frognumber

8 hours ago

<--- This. And specifically:

> Google's records retention policies were also over the top and perhaps hurt it: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/20/technology/google-antitru...:

If you're intentionally hiding things from government investigators, the legal presumption is there's a good reason. Judges are allowed to impute things from destroyed evidence. Otherwise, everyone would destroy evidence.

ezfe

14 hours ago

That's why they're also suing apple

strongpigeon

14 hours ago

But there is an antitrust lawsuit against Apple and Microsoft is getting probed by the FTC regarding their cloud business.

klysm

14 hours ago

Maybe? Any regulation is very welcomed in this area

infotainment

14 hours ago

Weirdly selective regulation that punishes one company arbitrarily while ignoring others feels like a step in the wrong direction. We need actual laws about this, not various capricious enforcement of haphazard existing regulations.

mu53

13 hours ago

They need wins, and once the ball starts rolling, they can shift their focus. Government departments are restricted by budget. Going after 4 behemoths at the same time is not practical.

If google gets restrictions, then it makes apple look even more monopolistic. Like a trimming the hedges

myworkinisgood

14 hours ago

Actually not. Punishing the smaller company while allowing big company to run amok is essentially making things even worse.

ethbr1

14 hours ago

> smaller company

That's a weirdly specific way to label the 5th largest public company on the planet, by market cap.

... yes, it is smaller than the 2nd largest public company.

adrr

13 hours ago

2nd one has screwed over consumers in the past and continues to screw over consumers. Can you even buy MS office any more or do you have to rent it now? What’s with putting ads in the software you purchased?

creato

13 hours ago

It's not just apple, basically every company that is bigger than google is going to benefit from this. Apple, Microsoft, even Nvidia is getting their only real competitor and the biggest company that isn't dependent on them (google TPUs) kneecapped.

ethbr1

13 hours ago

I look forward to running my searches through Saudi Aramco.

creato

13 hours ago

You joke, yet a Saudi PIF company will probably try to buy Chrome if Google is forced to sell it.

ethbr1

4 hours ago

It does make one wonder if "sell Chrome" is the opening offer and "place Chrome in a multi-party foundation" might be the eventual compromise.

wbl

14 hours ago

In order to say Apple is a monopoly you need to define a very narrow market. The search market is obviously relevant and very dominated by Google.

tremarley

7 hours ago

Google claims their in the ad market. Not the search market.

duringmath

16 hours ago

The former Microsoft lawyer leading this prosecution is doing Microsoft's bidding.

sverhagen

15 hours ago

Wouldn't Microsoft be scared to suffer the same faith, if this were to really happen?

lmm

14 hours ago

The status quo is bad for Microsoft, anything with the potential to shake it up is worth doing. And they'd get a head start.

duringmath

15 hours ago

Microsoft doesn't want Google to control the codebase Edge is based on and doesn't want anyone to counter the MSFT + OpenAI partnership, and the DOJ is trying to hand them their wishes. Hopefully the judge rejects this overreach and rules on lawsuit scope.

Grimblewald

14 hours ago

preferable would be preventing google+anthropic but also breaking up ms + openai

inlined

14 hours ago

Doubt that’s on the table unless Microsoft is also sued. Without a joint ruling this wouldn’t be balanced

Grimblewald

12 hours ago

Doesn't mean we

a) can't hope

b) shouldn't hope

duringmath

14 hours ago

Ideally the feds would stay out of it and let the market do its thing.

ethbr1

14 hours ago

As someone who remembers a time before Google, no.

Letting "the market do its thing" only works until a few companies accumulate enough power to monopolize the market.

The last two decades have seen being the next Google transformed into being acquired by Google, which has been to the detriment of everyone.

adrr

14 hours ago

I remember the time before google. We were all stuck IE with no competitive browsers and everyone was using Windows machines. Now we have three browsers and multiple platforms. I just bought a Chromebook plus, that can run linux apps but is easy enough for my kid to use. My wife uses windows laptop and I use a mac. We have Amazon Echos through out the house. We have 4 major players in the tech space instead of one. Apple, Google, Microsoft and Amazon.

ethbr1

13 hours ago

Netscape? IE didn't become dominant until 2000+.

And those four players are more of a cartel than competitors, having agreed to mostly stay out of each other's ways.

The primary overlapping markets between them are consumptive devices and cloud services -- which I presume they're all in because they consider it strategically important enough to their other businesses to incinerate money.

adrr

9 hours ago

Apple and Google makes phones. All of them make tablets. Microsoft and Apple make laptops. All but Apple sell cloud computing. Google, Apple and Microsoft have office suites. Apple, Amazon and Google offer paid streaming platforms. Amazon, Apple and Google All offer smart assistants. I can keep going with things like game platforms, consumer storage,streaming music. Failing to see how they stay out of each other's way or have agreements with each other. Apple and Google literally give away their office apps which is the bread butter of Microsoft,

karaterobot

14 hours ago

I'm sorry, you're alleging that someone who used to work for Microsoft, but doesn't anymore, is ... well, still secretly working for Microsoft? Like, he's a spy inside the DOJ, but you've figured out his clever game? I don't understand.

vlovich123

14 hours ago

A common argument is that former corporate insiders remain loyal to their former employers once in positions of authority in the government so as to obtain lucrative positions once their time in government ends. It’s also possible there are corrupt private contracts in place to entice those actions.

I’m not sure why you’re being so sarcastic as it’s not a novel idea and it’s less “figured out the clever game” and more that even the appearance of impropriety removes faith and trust in the institution.

vinay427

14 hours ago

> even the appearance of impropriety removes faith and trust in the institution.

This seems like a nuanced and reasonable take, but a rather generous interpretation of the GP comment. I think it’s reasonable for the parent comment to push back against a definitive statement laying an accusation with no evidence.

vlovich123

an hour ago

It’s a reasonable take meant to explain GPs statement and sentiment regardless of the underlying truth of his statement and pushing back on what I found to be unfounded sarcasm that added nothing to the conversation.

justinclift

7 hours ago

Interestingly, that same argument was made for Nokia and in the end seems like it was probably true in that specific case.