Lush: My favorite small programming language

144 pointsposted 3 days ago
by todsacerdoti

26 Comments

andai

2 days ago

Previously:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34908067

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9602430

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2406325

Also this comment:

> "Lush" stands for "Lisp Universal Shell". It has not just S-expression syntax but recursion, setq, dynamic typing, quoting of S-expressions and thus lists and homoiconicity, cons, car, cdr, let*, cond, progn, runtime code evaluation, serialization (though bread/bwrite rather than read/print), and readmacros. Its object system is based on CLOS.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28728302

alpinesol

2 days ago

Fun fact: Lush was invented by Yann LeCun, of convnet and FAIR fame.

ngriffiths

2 days ago

Makes me curious what state R was at the time, or whatever else could've been useful for deep learning, and the benefits of a new language vs adapting something that exists. Seems like it was a big investment

antononcube

2 days ago

R and its ecosystem have some unbeatable features, but, generally speaking, the "old", base R is too arcane to be widely useful. Also, being "made by statisticians for statisticians" should be a big warning sign.

nxobject

8 hours ago

Despite being made by statisticians, I ironically find that munging R packages together for certain classes of analysis such a slog that it prevents me from doing the actual statistical thinking. Sometimes the plots fall behind commercial packages, sometimes the diagnostics, and sometimes you have to combine multiple incompatible packages to get what a commercial package can do.

(Survival analysis and multilevel modeling comes to mind.)

_Wintermute

2 days ago

In my opinion R should thought of as an unbeatable graphical calculator, but an awful programming language.

williamcotton

2 days ago

The tinyverse collection of packages makes things a lot more sane, IMO:

  penguins <- read_csv("penguins.csv") |>
    na.omit() |>
    select(species, island, bill_length_mm, body_mass_g) |>
    group_by(species, island) |>
    summarize(
      mean_bill_length = mean(bill_length_mm),
      mean_mass = mean(body_mass_g),
      n = n()
    ) |>
    arrange(species, desc(mean_bill_length))
  
  penguins |>
    ggplot(aes(x = species, y = mean_bill_length, fill = island)) +
    geom_col(position = "dodge") +
    labs(
      title = "Mean Bill Length by Species and Island",
      y = "Mean Bill Length (mm)"
    ) +
    theme_minimal()

_Wintermute

2 days ago

True, but trying to wrap any of that into a function rather than simple scripts makes you delve into the ever-deprecated API for non-standard evaluation.

currymj

2 days ago

i would compare base R to basically a shell. meant to be used interactively. okay for small scripts. you can write big programs but it will get weird.

perrygeo

a day ago

That's how I view it. I still use R for plotting and quick stats analyses but it is painful to do any real work.

I recommend the article "Evaluating the Design of the R Language" [1] - it reads like a horror story. The memory usage and performance is abysmal, the OO features are a mess, and the semantics are very weird ("best effort semantics" is about as predictable as it sounds!). The lexical scoping is based on Scheme but has so many weird edge cases. It's a dumpster fire of a language, but it somehow works for its intended purpose.

[1] http://janvitek.org/pubs/ecoop12.pdf

knighthack

2 days ago

What does 'small' really mean?

I would think of a language like Go as small (say, in comparison to Rust or Swift) - the language itself at least, if you discount the standard library.

I find the use of the word 'small' quite confusing.

jerf

2 days ago

The author appears to be defining it in terms of the effort put in to the language, basically, person-hours.

Go may be a small language by some definitions (and as my phrasing implies, perhaps not by others), but it is certainly one that has had a lot of person-hours put into it.

emmanueloga_

2 days ago

The problem is that there's no universal definition of "small" when it comes to languages.

An article on the Brown PLT blog [1] suggests analyzing languages by defining a core language and a desugaring function. A small core simplifies reasoning and analysis but can lead to verbose desugaring if features expand into many constructs. The boundary between the core and sugared language is flexible, chosen by designers, and reflects a balance between expressiveness and surface simplicity.

Feature complexity can be evaluated by desugaring: concise mappings to the core suggest simplicity, while verbose or intricate desugarings indicate complexity.

So, a possible definition of a "small" language could be one with both a small core and a minimal desugaring function.

--

1: https://blog.brownplt.org/2016/01/08/slimming-languages.html

cannibalXxx

2 days ago

do you already program with this language? what is your paradigm?

kgwgk

2 days ago

“Already”?

This is about a language abandoned 15 years ago!

andai

2 days ago

It's buried in the article, but Lush is from 1987!

kgwgk

2 days ago

  SN(1987) neural network simulator for AmigaOS (Leon Bottou, Yann LeCun)
   |
  SN1(1988) ported to SunOS. added shared-weight neural nets and graphics (LeCun)
   |   \ 
   |   SN1.3(1989) commercial version for Unix (Neuristique)
   |   /
  SN2(1990) new lisp interpreter and graphic functions (Bottou)
     |   \ 
     |   SN2.2(1991) commercial version (Neuristique)
     |    |
     |   SN2.5(1991) ogre GUI toolkit (Neuristique)
     |   / \ 
      \ /  SN2.8(1993+) enhanced version (Neuristique)
       |     \ 
       |   TL3(1993+) lisp interpreter for Unix and Win32 (Neuristique)
       |      [GPL]
       |        \_______________________________________________
       |                                                        |
     SN27ATT(1991) custom AT&T version                          |
       |        (LeCun, Bottou, Simard, AT&T Labs)              |
       |                                                        |
     SN3(1992) IDX matrix engine, Lisp->C compiler/loader and   |
       |       gradient-based learning library                  |
       |       (Bottou, LeCun, AT&T)                            |
       |                                                        |
     SN3.1(1995) redesigned compiler, added OpenGL and SGI VL   |
       |         support (Bottou, LeCun, Simard, AT&T Labs)     |
       |                                                        |
     SN3.2(2000) hardened/cleanup SN3.x code,                   |
       |         added SDL support (LeCun)                      |
       | _______________________________________________________|
       |/
       |
     ATTLUSH(2001) merging of TL3 interpreter + SN3.2 compiler
     [GPL]         and libraries (Bottou, LeCun, AT&T Labs).
       |
     LUSH(2002) rewrote the compiler/loader (Bottou, NEC Research Institute)
     [GPL]
       |
     LUSH(2002) rewrote library, documentation, and interfaced packages
     [GPL]      (LeCun, Huang-Fu, NEC)
https://lush.sourceforge.net/credits.html

peagreen

2 days ago

I love this diagram. Is there a tool that generates such things? Or is there a name for this style of diagram that I could search for?

My prime use would be generating diagrams of function call chains in large Python code bases.

johnisgood

a day ago

How about pycallgraph that can be exported to Graphviz?

FWIW it is called evolutionary or lineage (or hierarchical lineage) diagram I believe.

user

2 days ago

[deleted]

revskill

2 days ago

[flagged]

anonzzzies

2 days ago

And that's related to someone liking a language how? Especially one that's dead for a lot time...

Not to mention; you seem to be religiously pushing react which is more of a dsl but still..

revskill

2 days ago

You mean what do i mean and what do you mean ? Thanks.