The Optimus robots at Tesla's Cybercab event were humans in disguise

117 pointsposted 9 months ago
by achristmascarl

125 Comments

wongarsu

9 months ago

I haven't seen the event, so I don't know how Musk presented them, and whether he was misleading or just vague in describing them. But imho the headline goes to far in calling them "humans in disguise". The headline makes it sound like they were literal humans in robot costumes like those in the Chinese World Robot Conference last month.

I guess we can haggle over the definition of "robot". But they are humanoid machines that happen to be mostly remote-controlled - with some automation for functions like walking. If these aren't robots then neither are Boston Dynamic's dogs, and I have never seen anyone complain about people describing them as robots

griffzhowl

9 months ago

I agree, it's an obviously deceptive headline. More accurate would be "...were (partly) controlled by humans." That would have gotten them fewer clicks though, presumably...

Even in the article:

"Another robot — or the human voicing it — told an attendee in a stilted impression of a synthetic voice, “Today, I am assisted by a human,” adding that it’s not fully autonomous. (The voice stumbled on the word “autonomous.”)"

So it seems Tesla were being fairly transparent about what was going on, and ironically it's this article chiding Tesla for being deceptive that is deceptive.

It comes across as a desperate reach to be critical: why say a "stilted impression" of a synthetic voice? As opposed to a mellifluous and natural impression of a synthetic voice? It gets it backwards: it's synthetic voices that are often stilted.

And then why note that it stumbled on "autonomous"? Is this supposed to be some gotcha that it's controlled by a bashful human after all? But it just told you that a human is controlling it... some trashy journalism imho

dgacmu

9 months ago

Not to ruin a joke, but

.

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It's a reverse of the Transformers "robots in disguise" tagline, and quite appropriate given that Tesla named them "Optimus" (as in prime, the name of a transformer).

slimebot80

9 months ago

"I guess we can haggle over the definition of robot"

You could also actually watch the event and listen to how Elon exaggerates his own definition of what was presented.

valval

9 months ago

I watched the event and didn’t get any of this. Could you quote directly?

mvdtnz

9 months ago

> The headline makes it sound like they were literal humans in robot costumes like those in the Chinese World Robot Conference last month.

Another example of this behaviour is Tesla themselves 3 years ago.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-mocked-after-unveiling-a...

schiffern

9 months ago

The suited dancer was just an 'ice breaker' joke to start off, and obviously so. It was presented as such. Did anyone seriously think it was being put forward as a real robot??

user

9 months ago

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sschueller

9 months ago

Since they didn't disclose this, wouldn't it then be fraud? Does anyone remember when Nikola rolled their truck down a hill to make it appear to be driving? The CEO went to prison...

fastball

9 months ago

Tesla would've needed to claim that they were not being remotely operated, which AFAIK they did not do.

gorpy7

9 months ago

Is this comment and every comment under this comment a joke? The article clearly states that they repeatedly said they were human assisted. If there are bots misguiding us, i think i found them.

griffzhowl

9 months ago

Fraud means a deception for the purpose of financial gain, so I think as long as they're not selling these while giving the impression that this is autonomous behavior, it's not fraud.

In any case, from the article,

"Another robot — or the human voicing it — told an attendee in a stilted impression of a synthetic voice, “Today, I am assisted by a human,” adding that it’s not fully autonomous."

So it seems in fact they were fairly transparent about what was going on. The article just has a deceptive headline.

greenthrow

9 months ago

They don't have to be selling them to gain financially off of lies. They were obviously trying to juice the stock price.

griffzhowl

9 months ago

Maybe, as always, they were trying to juice the stock price with this promotional event, but if the robot is telling people that it's controlled by a human, where is the lie?

aquatica

9 months ago

Because it didn't. There's videos where people ask and the "robot" replies with "I can't disclose how much AI there is in me"

fastball

9 months ago

That's not a lie either?

Gee101

9 months ago

I think historically Telsa stock always falls after their events.

user

9 months ago

[deleted]

threeseed

9 months ago

It doesn't matter if it's fraud.

If Trump wins, all of the investigations will simply go away.

If Trump loses, then there are already a number of SEC/DOJ investigations targeting Musk over FSD claims and how X was purchased that would see him face jail time.

griffzhowl

9 months ago

Yeah, I found it quite amazing that it wasn't disclosed that he was holding significant amounts of Twitter stock when he made an offer well-above asking price, inflating that stock price, and then tried to back out of the deal.

It makes it look like a classic dogecoin pump-and-dump scheme which backfired when it became clear how completely illegal it was. I haven't followed it in detail though so am curious about other interpretations

victor106

9 months ago

I don’t think Elon would ever go to prison. He’s too powerful. He is Trump’s best buddy now. So he is fine.

immibis

9 months ago

That was him, this is Elon.

guywithahat

9 months ago

To my understanding, there was a human remote assisting the robot in some demos. So some of the demos were just the AI, others like the bartender was a robot being controlled by a human. Honestly it doesn’t seem that bad to me, when I read the headline I thought it was going to be people in costumes

greenthrow

9 months ago

Read the article. Only the walking was AI. Everything else was human controlled, ie faked.

skeledrew

9 months ago

What's wrong with that? Were any explicit claims made that the bots were fully controlled by AI?

skeledrew

9 months ago

Strange wording of the title, but no real surprise here. This wasn't meant to showcase AI in humanoid robots, but how far along humanoids have come in terms of physical dexterity, IMO.

What we'll see going forward will be similar to the vehicle fleet: the humanoid fleet will be manned by real humans, learning from them for years and gradually taking over various tasks as they become rote. Human controllers will over time be able to handle increasingly more bots simultaneously, until relegated to a purely supervisory role.

Just as with the latest Tesla vehicle update the driver doesn't even need to keep their hand on the wheel anymore, but merely watch the road, and robotaxis with neither steering wheel nor pedals are now feasible.

allears

9 months ago

That still seems pretty remarkable to me that they're able to do such complex things via remote control (wireless, with multiple robots in the room). I'd love to see what sort of setup the operators were using, and how much the robot did on its own.

sschueller

9 months ago

They had things like this in the 80s before VFX became the norm when making movies. Although not wireless back then the puppeteering rigs were very fluid and sophisticated. Nowadays we have teleoperated robots for surgery. There is a video online of a person folding origami with one of those and the dexterity is incredible.

Edit: https://youtu.be/MOSTAvsQpdM

chrisco255

9 months ago

We have teleoperated robotic arms for surgery. We do not have practical humanoid robots and have never had practical, productized teleoperated humanoid robots.

GenerocUsername

9 months ago

I wonder if the humans, in whatever control rig they had, have to act 'robotic', or if the rig is just some sort of pose interpolator which naturally adds the robotic characteristics by way of literally being a robot

stathibus

9 months ago

This could have been the story that cast them in a positive light, if they were honest about it. They were beyond dishonest. Operators at the event were instructed not to give a clear answer when attendees asked if the robots were autonomous or not. It's like going to disney world and asking "are you the real mickey mouse" except the investors actually need to know if its mickey mouse (spoiler: it wasn't)

user

9 months ago

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jncfhnb

9 months ago

Remotely controlled humanoid robots are pretty cool though, aren’t they? Like, potentially hugely valuable?

trzy

9 months ago

Would you pay $20k + $3/hr for a teleoperated housekeeer that works slowly instead of a $20/hr human? It just doesn’t make any financial sense. Automation is the only way but even then, at say $200-$300/mo, the break even is ~2 years on a $5000 robot, and that’s ignoring maintenance costs.

There are also potential ethical issues around teleoperation as a form of labor arbitrage. Should employers be able to outsource low-skill physical labor to actual humans abroad to circumvent wage and immigration laws? Is the benefit worth the economic dislocation to society? If you say yes, ask yourself why even bother reshoring manufacturing at higher cost and with trade barriers.

Teleoperation is argued to be an interim solution that trains autonomous systems the way driving trains FSD but as of right now, given what we know about just how much data is needed for current imitation learning approaches to work for fine manipulation tasks, it doesn’t seem scaleable. Maybe there will be a modeling breakthrough.

My bet is on cheaper non-humanoid form factors and data collection that doesn’t require a robot being operated for every data collector in the field.

jncfhnb

9 months ago

A house keeper? No. Imo the use case is for jobs that are easy, necessary, and low utilization where you mostly pay people to be present and available but not actually doing anything. The value here is the ability to scale up and down quickly. Can’t do that with real humans.

The ease of swapping different expertise in to the same body as needed could also potentially be useful.

> If you say yes, ask yourself why even bother reshoring manufacturing at higher cost and with trade barriers.

Mostly the reasoning to onshore things is to ensure independence on manufacturing critical resources despite the competitive disadvantage; not a jobs program.

trzy

9 months ago

How do you scale up and down with $20k robots that have to be operated by individual humans?

jncfhnb

9 months ago

A human has to be paid for being present. A robot can be remotely activated as needed. If you need 5 minutes of labor somewhere over an 8 hour period, you can pay for 5 minutes if labor by having a person that jumps between bots.

griffzhowl

9 months ago

Wow, when you put it like that I realised there must be a market for this kind of thing, given that cost and speed of operation are incremental changes that will plausibly improve over the midterm.

So you'll have upper-middle class people own a robot and whenever they want a task done they order it from basically a call-centre somewhere in the world... reminds me of the etymology of "robot" - from the Slavic for "slave"...

You're right there are ethical issues, but hardly new ones for this context. In response to your question,

> Should employers be able to outsource low-skill physical labor to actual humans abroad to circumvent wage and immigration laws?

This is a very pertinent question ethically, but this already undergirds our current globalized society, where the the clothes most of us are wearing, the coffee we've been drinking, much of the food we've been eating today, and so on, are produced exactly by such labor. This is the way the world works, for the time being. And it's unfair. But these robotic possibilities don't add to the unfairness in my view, although they definitely would give it a new twist. Given current trends I wouldn't bet against increased twistedness..

iAMkenough

9 months ago

If there will be mass deportations of people working illegally in the US, having mechanical puppets for low paid international laborers to operate seems like it'd be enticing to a business owner that can no longer pay illegal workers but wants to keep labor costs down. They could rent a fleet of them during the seasons they need bodies.

trzy

9 months ago

At $20k or even $5k, the alternative is still having a real human do the job better, faster, and cheaper.

iAMkenough

9 months ago

But real humans are protected by labor laws. Foreign remote gig workers are not.

Tycho

9 months ago

Maybe - $20k is a bit steep, but I would certainly pay a large premium to have my housework done without needing to employ a stranger to actually work in my home.

olyjohn

9 months ago

I'd rather have specialized robots that do a particular thing well, rather than some crappy humanoid robot that can't do anything well. Being humanoid shaped just limits them to being worse than humans at human things.

I already have a dish washing robot. And one that washes and dries my clothes. Can you imagine if you had a humanoid robot that was in your laundry room scrubbing your clothes manually in a tub and then taking them out and hanging them up on clothes lines? That is what you get with humanoid robots.

Would you rather have a tiny vacuum that parks itself in the corner and disappears, or some 6 foot tall thing with arms and legs pushing your Hoover around all day?

skeledrew

9 months ago

That seems to me to be a limited vision. The existing, specialized robots (dish washer, vacuum, etc) would be controlling by a master AI, which would potentially be within or also coordinating the humanoid. The humanoid robot itself would actually help with things the others can't handle, such as loading the dishwasher or carrying the vacuum up/down the stairs. And waiting humans at a party/bar/dinner for example, instead of inventing even more specialized robots for each.

jncfhnb

9 months ago

Reads like the opinion of a guy whose wife does all the laundry

valval

9 months ago

You don’t seem to be serious, but your Optimus would be used for tasks that can’t be automated otherwise.

Merik

9 months ago

Folding, sorting, and putting away clothes is a time consuming daily task in a house with young kids, that cant be done by any robot that isn’t humanoid.

Clearing the table, scraping dirty plates, putting condiments back in the fridge, packing away uneaten food as left overs, rinsing the dishes, loading the dishwasher efficiently, then unloading the dishes and putting them all away in the arbitrary places the go, are all tasks to that cant be done by any robot that isn’t humanoid in nature in some way.

The amount of pen caps, dropped food, discarded clothes, school bags, shoes, partially assembled legos, couch cushions, books, and other random bulky items that end up on the floor of a house with young kids makes the idea of robotic floor cleaning being a solved problem laughable.

My assumption is that an Optimus home assistant will be an order of magnitude cheaper than manual labour, which means it will be accessible to people who can’t currently afford a cleaner/maid but whose lives would be improved by having help with the daily workload of life.

This brings up two thoughts, I wonder if the advent of robots will lead to more gender equality as women currently bear the a significantly higher percentage of the domestic work load.

Also, autonomous robots are going to make even harder to convince my kids to clean up after themselves :)

swores

9 months ago

> "Folding, sorting, and putting away clothes is a time consuming daily task in a house with young kids, that cant be done by any robot that isn’t humanoid."

I don't understand what about that task needs it to be humanoid?

It obviously needs various abilities that humans have - being able to move around, being able to control multiple "limbs" to manipulate the clothes, etc. But why couldn't it look like R2-D2 rather than C-3PO? Why couldn't it be a flying drone that has 4 clothes-folding arms? Or... whatever non-humanoid design could be conceived that works best?

The only "need" for it being humanoid would be if the kids (or adults, or animals) found it more acceptable to be around.

jncfhnb

9 months ago

The human world is generally designed for the human form. You don’t need four arms to do most tasks, but you often need two. You often need fingers to manipulate objects in specific ways. You can’t realistically fly while safely doing mundane tasks. You probably need legs to traverse areas. You generally need your hands at the height level of a typical adult.

The limitations of R2 are pretty obvious if you try to imagine it. there’s probably some optimizations that could be made but it’s a sensible start imo

swores

9 months ago

You've described reasons that a humanoid is a good form factor for creating a general use robot, but still nowhere close to the claim I replied to that sorting/folding/putting away clothes "cant be done by any robot that isn’t humanoid".

But even your reasons for preferring a humanoid are all reasons why humans are better than current-technology non-humanoid robots, not unarguable facts that humans are the ultimate design. As a couple of examples:

> "You probably need legs to traverse areas."

Even if legs are definitely needed, the animal kingdom shows that human legs are far from the only choice. Why only two? Why not legs that are 90% of the height of the robot rather than human proportions? Why not legs with the equivalent of 20 knees rather than 1 knee, or legs that feature wheels that are sometimes used, or...

> "You can’t realistically fly while safely doing mundane tasks."

Not if you were to take any existing consumer drone and add robot arms to it, sure, but there's no scientific reason it can't be made with future improvements to technology. We already have drones that can automatically avoid bumping into things, and that can counter the effects of wind to stay in the same position, and we have drones that would be safe to walk into (ones with covered blades, where the only injury risk is it flying into you hard enough). There's no reason that a future version couldn't be just as stable hovering in the air while doing something as being on the ground - it just needs to extend its stabilisation algos so that it's not just countering the wind, but also pushing in whatever directions required to counteract forces caused by whatever its doing. And it also doesn't even have to be flying while doing the task, it can fly to the clothes, then unwind its leg (or legs) and stand there while doing its work, or...

Humanoid is obviously appealing for the simple fact that, if it's developed to the point that it has the same (or better) physical abilities as a human (including balance etc) then we know it can fit into anything humans do because we already do it, and because we've built a world around us for human-shaped people. But thinking there couldn't be alternative form factors that are just as good if not better is just lacking imagination on the subject of what technology will be able to do in the coming years - especially when not talking about a general purpose "can do anything a human can do" robot but about specific tasks (such as the clothes sorting & folding that we're discussing).

jncfhnb

9 months ago

That claim is pointless. People are not going to purchase a dedicated clothes folding robot. The point of a humanoid robot is general problem solving. That is the whole value prop.

Obviously you can design better forms for specific tasks, but people don’t want some zany futuristic world populated by dozens of task specific robots.

swores

9 months ago

Nobody was arguing there should or shouldn't be a robot that only folds clothes. The subject you replied to be about was whether or not a robot for the purpose HAS to be humanoid to work or not. You've just been arguing different points.

But even for general purpose robots, my points above stand that future tech will mean plenty of non-humanoid shaped robots could be just as effective as general purpose robots as humanoid ones.

user

9 months ago

[deleted]

jononor

9 months ago

You would rather employ 1k strangers - who are on the other side of an Internet connection - but still control a physical robot in your home that can observe and carry out any action that a human could do? In what way is it actually better?

Tycho

9 months ago

The robot can’t take anything out of the home or bring anything into it. The operators are not locals with any connection to the local community. They don’t need a key to my property.

codetrotter

9 months ago

You could geofence the robot with indoor positioning so that even if the operator tries to open a window or a door for accomplices, the robot would not be able to reach any doors and windows. You could also have separately controlled curtains and blinds, and before the operator connects to your robots all of those are closed. Now the remote human has no way to even see out of the windows to tell where your house is at.

Vs a real life human stranger in your house that could steal stuff and let accomplices into the house.

skeledrew

9 months ago

Far easier to have activity monitoring and logging, alerting and pausing on anything suspicious. The rogue operator will then be investigated and terminated, or even arrested, if need be.

valval

9 months ago

This is just a strawman. Tesla is developing an autonomous robot, not a remote controlled one.

jncfhnb

9 months ago

It’s not obvious that they have any chance of delivering an autonomous robot

valval

9 months ago

Why not? Because they’re going to run out of money before the development is complete? Because developing such product is impossible?

jncfhnb

9 months ago

Because it’s a difficult, unsolved problem and there’s no evidence that they are making progress on it.

fakedang

9 months ago

Mining. War. Sewer cleaning. Tons of jobs where it would help not being actively in the call of duty, and where precision isn't as much of a priority.

trzy

9 months ago

Teleop is used already in these applications. But a human form factor is not required.

jncfhnb

9 months ago

A human form factor is not required or optimized for any specific task, but it does generalize which is potentially very useful.

mckn1ght

9 months ago

Maybe. But if it is a worse design for tasks A, B and C and harder to build, why not go with the simpler and more specialized design for each separate task? Is the economy of scale really that much better with the general design? I’m not convinced.

jncfhnb

9 months ago

If you’re talking about industrial tasks then you want efficiency and precision. If you’re talking about mundane variety of tasks then you want generalizeability.

Having a robot bake A cake and then wash the dishes. Not sensical to build a custom bot.

mckn1ght

9 months ago

I’m still not convinced a human form factor is the best solution there. Why not fixed articulating arms at the laundry/sink locations instead of bipedal robots that must maintain balance and locomotion between the spots? Maybe if that were possible to do perfectly, but the engineering effort to get there is enormous compared to tech we’ve already had on assembly lines for decades. I’m not even saying we that we absolutely shouldn’t explore the tech, I’m just questioning if it’s objectively the best solution. A humanoid robot wouldn’t completely remove the need for human effort involved in eating or getting dressed and undressed… so is it really a problem that we need to physically place dishes or clothes in a certain spot ourselves for them to be dealt with?

jncfhnb

9 months ago

Nobody wants mechanical arms attached to their sink and every other object that may require work. Mind you they may not want an android in their home either.

Laundry and washing dishes is not just “putting things in a spot”. Perhaps you don’t fold your clothes or separate your clothes or scrub dishes but many people do. Even loading the dish washer is fairly annoying when it’s a large crowd. Cooking is of course a huge one.

The question is really just how much would you pay for a 24/7 live in maid that can cook, clean, repair, etc. with a real human you’re paying them for availability. With a remote operated robot you’re paying for just the labor hours and none of the downtime.

It seems kind of fucked up but I do think the economics could work. People do have servants today. I tend to imagine such a service would be cheaper than a servant even at $20k up front cost. I do agree the bipedal legs seem unlikely be cost effective.

Sohcahtoa82

9 months ago

If I could pay $20K once and then never have to worry about doing any household chores ever again, I'd be whipping my credit card out at light speed.

If it's a robot that needs to be able to work in any room, including navigating stairs, I'd think being bipedal is the simplest way to achieve it. Maybe make it tripedal to make walking/balancing easier.

nick3443

9 months ago

Housekeepers in a lot of places charge $50+ per hour

wslh

9 months ago

This is beyond Elon Musk and Tesla. How much will they cost in a few years? Has someone watched "Robot & Frank (2012)"?.

mossTechnician

9 months ago

Generally, humanoid robots are not preferable to other, purpose-built robots that (for example) you'll see on factory floors. Boston Dynamics already have adaptable, quadrupedal robots that can be remotely deployed too.

The tasks Tesla suggested included babysitting, and now that we know that the robots are built for remote control first, I would feel pretty uncomfortable with letting my child alone in the same house with a robot like that. Vacuum cleaners are bad enough.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/ecovacs-robot-vacuums-hacked...

schiffern

9 months ago

  >remote control first
If you mean 'first' in a literal chronological sense, sure. It's a logical R&D stepping stone.

If you mean it's the typical operating mode for the final product, I doubt we can conclude that just from an early public tech demo.

mossTechnician

9 months ago

Touche; I don't have a reason to think any finished product would be remote control first, but I would be shocked if the resulting robot wasn't bristling with cameras and network antennas. If hackers can yell slurs and record people through a robot vacuum, how much more could they do through a robot butler?

jncfhnb

9 months ago

That is because humanoid robots are general purpose forms, rather than purpose built forms.

Factory robotics is mostly just conveyor belts and pusher whatevers. Not even something resembling a droid of any kind.

dom96

9 months ago

Yeah, they were cool in the 2000s too when ASIMO was shown off. What ever happened to that?

Honda is now valued higher than Tesla, right? Oh wait... no they are not.

chrisco255

9 months ago

ASIMO never made it off stage, and Honda never prioritized shipping it. We definitely never saw ASIMO milling around a crowded event and serving drinks and handing out gift bags.

It was never remote controllable by unskilled operators.

It doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to come up with scenarios where even a remote controlled bot would be incredibly useful to society. If Honda never productized it or developed Asimo into something practical, then we can only speculate the reasons why. But that's on Honda for failing to follow through, ultimately.

transfire

9 months ago

Well, duh.

I don’t think it really matters. The plan is to train the robots via telepresence. If that works out, no one will care that these demos used exactly that.

GaggiX

9 months ago

We will have these robots in 2 years /s

loteck

9 months ago

100% false headline. Where's the integrity, Verge?

mvdtnz

9 months ago

Not humans in disguise, but remotely controlled.

underwater

9 months ago

The thing that takes this into scam territory for me is Elon’s comments that “we started with a person in a robot suit and improved dramatically year after year, so if you extrapolate this we’re going to have something extraordinary.”

This statement is deliberately worded to avoid making a promise because Elon knows it is effectively a big fat lie. To date Tesla have solved the same problems that others have already solved. You can’t extrapolate progress because what comes next are the really hard problems that no one has solved. Even if Tesla is able solve those problems, there is zero chance that they can move at the same speed. They have 50% of an autonomous robot, but the next half is going to take 90% of the effort.

This is the usual smoke and mirrors. Elon shows off a tech demo using incremental gains and falsely represents how long it will take them to deliver on a revolutionary product.

fastball

9 months ago

Elon's companies actually have a track record of solving the hard problems that take 90% of the effort, so that doesn't seem like a lie at all.

api

9 months ago

SpaceX does, as we saw today. I suspect it’s in part because your employment options in aerospace are very limited and SpaceX is one of the best if you want to advance your career or work on cool stuff in space. I also get the sense it’s the one Elon cares most about and the one with the strongest sense of internal mission.

His other companies less so. Tesla was early in EVs and did a lot of things right but the FSD push has been a huge disappointment and stuff like Cybertruck is a joke. Meanwhile other car companies are catching up. Boring company is boring. Maybe Neuralink?

chrisco255

9 months ago

No other car manufacturer has anything close to FSD. Tesla is 1000 miles ahead of their closest competitor on that point. Waymo isn't scalable or practical for the future. No one wants a giant ugly lidar attached to every corner of their vehicle.

The CyberTruck is the highest selling electric truck, so it's not a joke by any means.

Would you listen to yourself nitpicking at whether or not someone's 8th or 9th company is as impressive as their 3rd or 4th. Who has that kind of record, either present day or any time in history? Edison is about the only name that comes close.

pvaldes

9 months ago

> To date Tesla have solved the same problems that others have already solved.

So, everybody was making electric vehicles before Tesla? This is not how I remember it.

tzs

9 months ago

In the mid to late '90s there were actually several EVs from major car makers, such as the first generation RAV4 EV from Toyota (1997-2003), the Nissan Altra (1997-2001) (the first production EV to use a lithium-ion battery), the Honda EV Plus (1997-1999), the Chevy S-10 Electric pickup (1997-1998), the GM EV1 (1996-1999), the Ford Ranger EV (1997-2002), and the Chrysler TEVan (1993-1995).

This was in response to California pushing for more efficient cars with the ultimate goal of zero-emissions.

What really helped Tesla was that they started out going for the sports car crowd. For someone's day to day workhorse car a lack of good support infrastructure is a big problem. People want that car to be useful for everything.

The people who could afford a $100k+ sports car could afford another car for when they needed to take the whole family somewhere, or take a long trip, or get groceries (the first generation Tesla Roadster's cargo capacity was less than that of a Mini Cooper convertible, about 1/3 of a Honda Civic or Nissan Sentra or Toyota Corolla). This meant that Tesla's market in the mid-2000s cared a lot less about EV infrastructure than the people who might have been interested in those '90s EVs.

There was another company making an EV sport car at the time, the AC Propulsion tzero. The people who founded Tesla actually founded Tesla because they saw that such a car would have a good chance of success but AC Propulsion wasn't interested in going into commercial production. They wanted to remain a technology company selling EV technology to others, rather than become a car company. So Tesla was formed, and licensed AC Propulsion's drive train and thus was born the Tesla Roadster.

dcmatt

9 months ago

Still amazing progress! Such a shame that Sony and Honda gave up on their bipedal robots 20 years ago. Imagine where we could've been

threeseed

9 months ago

They gave up because those types of robots are mostly pointless.

You're better off with job specific designs like what Boston Dynamics does.

chrisco255

9 months ago

None of those bots ever made it out of the lab or controlled stage presences. They were never pointless. They gave up for the same reason many people gave up on AI multiple times over the last 70 years. The compute wasn't there and the techniques were too manual. They were literally the meme of the miner giving up just before he strikes a diamond. Honda retired Asimo in 2017, the same year Google published "Attention Is All You Need".

threeseed

9 months ago

Robots are everywhere from vacuum cleaners to manufacturing.

The fact that companies haven't been rushing to produce humanoid versions should tell you everything about their usefulness.

chrisco255

9 months ago

It tells you about the difficulty of creating humanoid robots. Humans are extremely dexterous and agile creatures and it is an extremely challenging engineering task to produce humanoid robots.

timeon

9 months ago

> Imagine where we could've been

Where?

siliconc0w

9 months ago

IMO the tesla event could've used more emphasis on how they're going to use low latency tele-operations ("via Starlink") to bridge the gap between where they're at and full autonomy. That is at least a more convincing story for investors than yet another promise the current tech will be ready by 2027.

chrisco255

9 months ago

This event's focal point was the Cybercab and the Robovan. Optimus being live in front of an audience was a bonus.

user

9 months ago

[deleted]

dom96

9 months ago

The thing that I don't get about the silly Tesla robots is that we literally had the same in the 2000s. It was funnily enough also made by a car manufacturer. It was the Honda ASIMO. Optimus is at best a slightly better ASIMO.

What makes it better enough to make it exciting when ASIMO stalled?

blastonico

9 months ago

How long it will take until journalists call the starship booster catch a fraud?

jmartin2683

9 months ago

The new disclaimer at the beginning of the broadcast was doing some heavy lifting throughout the entire presentation.

penjelly

9 months ago

not impressed by slow, teleoperated movements and scripted dance routines. Best they showed off was walking, and that was slow and engineers guarded the bots closely to ensure nothing went wrong.

jfoster

9 months ago

They all spoke with different voices. It was obvious to most people that they probably were remotely operated.

There's several videos (in the article, even!) of people at the event asking them if they are being operated by a human. They said that they are.

The Verge is trying to manufacture controversy.

jampa

9 months ago

It’s very clear that the talent that made Tesla great and gave the company the headstart is clearly gone.

One thing that the stock market investors don’t realize yet is that CEOs are not the most important part of the company.

The same “Shit of Theseus” phenomenon happens with companies like Blizzard which talent remains only in name and brand recognition, peharps would not be best to move on from expecting things from a brand name that constantly misses the mark.

caboteria

9 months ago

I'm not sure that you meant to say "Shit of Theseus" but if you did: bravo!

sktrdie

9 months ago

My biggest beef with this is: why humanly shaped? Our shape is the outcome of evolutionary survival in an environment that is very much different from... a household?

wongarsu

9 months ago

Because robots shaped for their environment are old news, to the point that most of them aren't even called robots. If you want to wow people and have them feel a connection to your robot you have to make it at least resemble a mammal. Even better if it resembles a human.

There's also the other argument about humanoid robots doing better in environments adapted to humans. But that's so far that hasn't really panned out.

pvaldes

9 months ago

Not even a mammal. Even having the articulations in the wrong place (as the Boston dynamics dog) creates a lot of discomfort in the potential customers

gojomo

9 months ago

Why humanly shaped, you ask?

Drop-in compatibility with all human-shaped legacy interfaces, for the most-rapid deprecation of homo sapiens as soon as the ASI can teleoperate humanoid proxies.

pvaldes

9 months ago

We instinctively prefer machines that are arranged like us.

This is the reason that every single car built have "two eyes" and "four legs". They could have one, or three or five. A car designed by insects would have six wheels, but then people would reject the model as ugly. All cars have an upfront and a posterior "face". And this face depicts either a mammal or a person. Never a bird or a snail.

thombat

9 months ago

Generally having fewer than four wheels reduces stability while not offering compensating substantial advantages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-wheeler#Configurations). And more than four disjoint wheels means adding further axles and coping with the problem that on a bumpy road a wheel pair may entirely lose contact with the road.

As for headlights, a single central one would still be notably face-like given widely spaced turning indicators. And having two headlights gives redundancy: "one-eyed monsters" at night are preferable to cars lacking any lights.

Sohcahtoa82

9 months ago

> A car designed by insects would have six wheels, but then people would reject the model as ugly.

I doubt this. There are physics issues involved with 6 wheels.

First off, where are those extra wheels going? Dually pickup trucks exist, but that's just so they can carry heavy loads.

If you put them anywhere other than close to the existing tires, unless you attach some sort of steering mechanism, or perhaps use casters, turning becomes a huge problem as those tires would have to skid.

No, we use 4 tires because it's the most stable and efficient number of tires to use unless you need to carry a ton of extra weight.

golol

9 months ago

Take Optimus, teleoperate it to be a Bartender, collect the training data for your actual robotender. Repeat for any reasonably specific task.

chrisco255

9 months ago

Because all of human society is built around the human shape. If you want robots in the home, office, field, and factory, they need to be humanoid to maximize their utility. Bipedal movement is also advantageous for mixed terrain and energy conservation.

mhh__

9 months ago

But we then made houses

griffzhowl

9 months ago

This is a good point - households, and their implements and staircases and so on, have evolved to fit our shapes

josefritzishere

9 months ago

Elon is escalating quickly into a scam artist. I just don't trust any of his pronouncements or products anymore.

tennisflyi

9 months ago

Not surprising. At all. People, supposedly “smart,” eat it the fuck up.