PayPal (USA) will automatically share data about you to participating stores

267 pointsposted 18 hours ago
by xyst

104 Comments

nurtbo

17 hours ago

Privacy laws actually work! Let’s pass more of them.

> Information gathered about you after the effective date of our updated Privacy Statement, November 27, 2024, will be shared with participating stores where you shop, *unless you live in California, North Dakota, or Vermont.* For PayPal customers in California, North Dakota, or Vermont, we’ll only share your information with those merchants if you tell us to do so

tmpz22

16 hours ago

In 1999 the show writers of the West Wing accurately predicated this in an episode about the selection of a Supreme Court Judge:

"It's not just about abortion, it's about the next 20 years. In the '20s and '30s it was the role of government. '50s and '60s it was civil rights. The next two decades are going to be privacy. I'm talking about the Internet. I'm talking about cell phones. I'm talking about health records and who's gay and who's not. And moreover, in a country born on the will to be free, what could be more fundamental than this?"

- Sam Seaborn (Rob Lowe) West Wing (ep: The Short List) 1999

- We've seen massive breaches of EMR systems

- We've seen massive breeahes from dating apps (Grindr) outing Gay individuals

- None of these entities faced significant consequences for their actions and continue to operate with large amounts of profit.

- 2 years after this episode the Patriot Act was passed. We've failed on privacy so far.

m463

15 hours ago

The government has failed the constituents.

Regulatory capture is still the highest ROI investment, and we should work on that.

potato3732842

14 hours ago

It's a perverse feedback loop. The more power the .gov has to regulate the better the ROI of regulatory capture.'

I'm not sure how we get out of this situation without it getting way worse.

hobobaggins

12 hours ago

Reduce the power of the govt to regulate things at the federal level and instead move that power to the states. This will return power to the people, and people will naturally move to states that are delivering for them (whatever that is that they're looking for).

Across 50 states, this makes it 50 times harder (literally) to practice regulatory capture, and 50 times as likely that they'll be caught out by it, and because news travels at the speed of light today (unlike in the Constitutional era), 50 times as likely that the other state residents will find out about it.

Everything becomes fifty times better once we just return to the principles of federalism: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." (Tenth Amendment)

Decentralization still works. Push the power back downward to the people who care the most -- you and me. Even though it's one of the rare examples of a federal governing agency that is mostly apolitical and actually functions semi-effectively, the FTC, for example, is a largely pointless, neutered entity that pales in comparison to state powers. For example, the state Attorneys General were able to effectively destroy Big Tobacco. The federal government didn't even come close.

paulryanrogers

11 hours ago

People cannot move so easily. Some states have more influence than others. It also makes the decision of 'where' to move more complex.

Do I choose a state where my daughters have few rights or one where corporations control everything or where the pollution is so bad my kid's IQ will suffer?

fragmede

10 hours ago

Also, the one without school shootings please.

paulryanrogers

43 minutes ago

States have open borders, so I'm afraid that can't be solved by local measure alone

Hikikomori

6 hours ago

Sounds like a free market approach, we know how that usually goes, and we already see how bad it is for women and abortions.

b3ing

12 hours ago

Yeah and only 1 or 2 states will get around to doing anything about that 5-10 years down the road.

r-w

12 hours ago

Huh? Why can't you just regulate the flow of private funds to public servants and leave it at that? Not sure why you seem to be arguing that passing one bill expands the power of government as a whole.

bee_rider

12 hours ago

Someone should come up with a form of government where we just, like, ask the people what they want the government to do and then it does that.

paulryanrogers

11 hours ago

Supreme Court said money is speech and corporations are persons. We'll need to unwind some of the crazy first.

Loughla

11 hours ago

I was at breakfast this morning and overheard a conversation at the table next to me.

This conversation was about how a recent thunderstorm had small hail accompanying the rain. And then that this small hail was the leftover seeds from "the jet planes spraying that stuff to control the weather."

Direct voting on issues terrifies me.

Yeul

9 hours ago

Yes the American system is based on the admirable but false idea of the intelligent citizen. It probably worked a lot better when all the voters were wealthy land owners.

bitnasty

an hour ago

Worked better for who?

jh00ker

10 hours ago

I was at a coffee shop a couple weeks ago and I heard two guys going on about how the moon landing never could have happened because it seems impossible. They didn't have any supporting data. They just kept saying things like "all the footage looked so totally fake." My favorite was "and how did they even get back to Earth? I don't remember ever seeing video of then launching a rocket off the moon, do you?"

SMH

orbisvicis

10 hours ago

The astronauts drew straws, and Sandy Koufax had the bad fortune to draw the short straw. He would stay behind to roll tape while Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin were to return home. The two astronauts would remain suited for the ascent. Buzz Aldrin would monitor the instrument consoles while Neil Armstrong was to remain tethered to the open hatchway in what was later termed "a daring attempt" to recover the film canister thrown by Sandy Koufax. Unfortunately Neil Armstrong was unable to recover the canister. He described it whizzing past his gloved fingers merely inches away during the docking maneuvers with the command module. No one knows what became of the footage. To this day it is likely tumbling around the cold dark expanse of space, perhaps as a new lunar satellite.

... and that's why we don't have footage of the lunar ascent.

orbisvicis

6 hours ago

As for his heroic efforts, Sandy Koufax was posthumously inducted into the baseball Hall of Fame, and to this day continues to be known for the "shot that went around the moon".

bee_rider

10 hours ago

Eh, I guess, although I’ve also heard some pretty wild things by elected officials. What can we do?

bloomingeek

9 hours ago

I'm a boomer, the best thing is for my generation to die out. We are the most selfish and ignorant generation ever in modern times. And yet we had access to the most information! My kids don't like me to talk like this, my reply is always, "prove me wrong". (I'm referring to the mess we have caused the world, not necessarily the mankind helping accomplishments.)

bee_rider

3 hours ago

Ah, well don’t be too rough on yourself. My parents are boomers, they are allright, I’m sure you are too.

I won’t say your generation didn’t make some mistakes politically. But in any group it is the kind and introspective that feel guilt about the group’s negative actions, while the selfish just go on happily being selfish. You don’t have to make up for the selfish folks who happen to have been born around the same time as you, but if you want to, live a long happy kind life.

awkwardpotato

12 hours ago

There are so many beautiful quote I love from the West Wing... but this one stands out for me because of how (a decade off but) shockingly accurate it is.

SturgeonsLaw

16 hours ago

Imagine if the real government was as competent and good faith as the West Wing government

switch007

6 hours ago

Right! The West Wing was political porn, and I loved it (and still re-watch it occasionally)

darknavi

16 hours ago

This is so open faced and gross. It reminds of someone talking about getting paid minimum wage. If you get paid minimum wage, what your employer is saying is, "I would pay you less if I was legally allowed to do so."

It also reminds me of State Farm's (auto/home insurance in the US) website with this link at the bottom:

> Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information (CA residents only)

heavensteeth

10 hours ago

> If you get paid minimum wage, what your employer is saying is, "I would pay you less if I was legally allowed to do so."

Doesn't this apply to all pay rates? It's not like high-paying jobs are high-paying for the love in the employer's heart.

When does a wage stop being gross? 1c over minimum wage? $1 over?

toomuchtodo

16 hours ago

Don’t get mad, get active. Keep cranking on the policy ratchet, progress and success is clearly possible.

blackeyeblitzar

15 hours ago

I would like a tax relating to privacy violations to be retroactive in all these other states. It’s actually legal to apply a retroactive tax, so why not?

seneca

14 hours ago

> If you get paid minimum wage, what your employer is saying is, "I would pay you less if I was legally allowed to do so."

The minimum wage is the government saying "if you produce less value than this arbitrary cut off, you aren't allowed to work".

kelnos

13 hours ago

Ah, lovely, you're one of those people.

If you produce less value than the cutoff (whatever that means; wages are set based on how little a company can get away with paying, not on some arbitrary "value" you've assigned to the work), companies that employ you still have to pay you a living wage. Or not even, since minimum wage usually lags a living wage.

The funny thing is, I bet you're also the kind of person who is against welfare programs. So if the minimum wage didn't exist, people in these sorts of jobs would get paid so little that they'd end up on welfare. Not sure how that would be an improvement.

majormajor

12 hours ago

Wages are more a factor of supply and demand and negotiation resulting from that than of value produced.

Otherwise we can have a long argument about if NFL players today truly produce 2-3x more "value" than 20-30 years ago for playing the same game.

(You might say "value" itself is coming from supply demand and that yes if more people have demand for NFL tickets or advertising spots during NFL games now then yes, the players are producing more value... but at that point when we acknowledge how interconnected and shape-able it all is, we could say that minimum wage is the government redirecting labor and businesses away from roles and behaviors that aren't even enough to cover the cost of living towards ones that are more valuable. Which would be... good?)

krapp

14 hours ago

No it isn't, because wages aren't set based on some objective measurement of the quality of value produced. If that were the case, increases in productivity would have resulted in a commensurate increase in wages, but the only increase is the gap between wages and productivity.

LegitShady

14 hours ago

you know what works better? delete your paypal account and dont use them as a service. I did this years ago and in fact have never missed not having one of these accounts. and since I'm not using paypal they're not sharing info on my to stores when i shop, whether my local laws allow it or not.

OJFord

3 hours ago

They refuse to delete the account I never intentionally created (their scammy credit card checkout tactics when I had no other option) unless I provide them a bunch of data I've never previously given them in order to 'verify' my identity.

guywithahat

14 hours ago

They also raise the bar of entry for companies, reducing competition. I don't use PayPal and won't use Venmo in stores because of this, however I certainly wouldn't be putting trust in more legislation solving this.

davidlumley

14 hours ago

Can you explain what bar has been raised unless you were planning to sell PII as part of your business model?

levocardia

16 hours ago

I've gotten the sense that PayPal is circling the drain lately. Whenever I log on (which is rare) I'm bombarded by modals and banners offering payment plans, digital coupons, etc. When I receive money, there's lots of clever UI design that's trying to trick me into transferring it instantly (for a fee) or keeping it in PayPal, as opposed to withdrawing it to my bank account. I suppose this is just one more sign the company is in financial trouble.

homebrewer

15 hours ago

Lately? It's been that way for decades.

I'll add one more to your list: since many things are paid in USD, and most of us live outside the US, your payment goes through a currency conversion. Up until a few years ago it was possible to configure PayPal to let your bank convert using bank's own rates, although it was hidden behind dark UI patterns. Then they removed it and now force you to run conversion at PayPal rates, which are just terrible, much worse than any bank I've ever used. This was about the time I stopped using PayPal completely, so I can't say exactly how much of a price hike this caused, but it's probably around 10%.

bee_rider

11 hours ago

I have thought PayPal was circling the drain for so long that, honestly, it probably says more about me than PayPal. Still though, I don’t get it, as far as I can tell they are just… essentially doing the same thing as credit card companies, but with less regulatory protection for their customers.(?)

Like they made sense 20 years ago when banks didn’t know about the internet. But now they are befuddling.

gruez

12 hours ago

>Then they removed it and now force you to run conversion at PayPal rates, which are just terrible, much worse than any bank I've ever used.

When was this? As of a few months ago it was working fine for me, although it required a bit of finagling to get it to work on new cards I added.

Novosell

15 hours ago

I can still defer conversion to my bank.

404mm

15 hours ago

Despite my bottomless hate for PayPal, I’ve been keeping my account active because there was always some worse option to give your credit card number to.

But with Privacy.com, I’m finally ready to let go.

UberFly

13 hours ago

I'm also all in on privacy.com. I hope they stick around because it's such an awesome service.

koyote

15 hours ago

Same here, I absolutely despise PayPal but end up using them often because I simply don't trust most retailers with my card information :(

(and it's often faster checkout if I don't have my CC details handy)

That being said, there's quite a bit of competition these days from BNPL vendors (klarna, afterpay etc.). I don't believe they are any more virtuous though...

loa_in_

11 hours ago

Imagine shopping and not trusting the shop enough to pull out your wallet inside

Symbiote

5 hours ago

Before chip cards were introduced in Europe (which was 20 years ago so most of my experience was as a child) this could happen.

My parents would avoid using a credit card in some restaurants and (less often) at remote petrol stations.

AlbertCory

12 hours ago

Every time I bring this up, someone says "oh, they'll ruin your credit rating!"

No, actually they don't, unless you do something fraudulent. If you cancel your subscription legitimately and then kill the credit card, you've just made sure there aren't any "accidental" charges.

onesociety2022

11 hours ago

Most people want to use privacy.com so you don’t have to cancel the subscription because websites like to put up artificial barriers like having to call a phone number and wait on hold to cancel a subscription. So what happens in that situation where you technically never officially canceled the subscription and so the company continues to bill you and when the payments don’t succeed, they send it to collections?

AlbertCory

10 hours ago

Hypothetical.

In my experience, they say "your credit card is failing, please give us another one." Because credit cards fail all the time. It's not Red Alert.

You go to the page to change your credit card, and THEN you usually can find the "cancel my account" link. As long as you're not still using their service, you don't owe anything. They cancel you, and that's that. No collections agency.

If someone has an actual event, not a hypothetical, speak up.

xyst

18 hours ago

Automatic data sharing policy to take effect on November 27, 2024. If you do not want PP to share your data with “participating stores”, you need to “opt out”.

Per e-mail sent regarding this policy update: “You can opt out of this at any time in your profile settings under "Data and Privacy."

thwarted

17 hours ago

Just logging in now, for the first time in years, I found two options that seem relevant.

For the first one: it presented that I had given permission to "paypal shopping" to share my identity. I removed that permission. This may be the automatically added permission that I had to opt out of. This was in a list of discrete permissions, or apparently so, since there was only one entry, but it could be removed by clicking on a trashcan icon.

For the second one, it was explicitly described with words like "share your info". This was a checkbox-slider, and it was already set to "off".

xyst

17 hours ago

Also, maybe it defaults to off if you reside in USA and live in one of these states:

> Information gathered about you after the effective date of our updated Privacy Statement, November 27, 2024, will be shared with participating stores where you shop, unless you live in California, North Dakota, or Vermont

johnnyanmac

15 hours ago

I'm in California and it was indeed off by default.

xyst

17 hours ago

I didn’t revoke the “PayPal shopping” permission. But now I will.

Wonder if PP system automatically moves that slider to off if you revoke the “PayPal Shopping” permission. I honestly don’t remember granting that explicitly. Then again, I have only used PP for rare occasions

TavsiE9s

17 hours ago

Any indication on _which_ setting under "Data and Privacy"?

xyst

17 hours ago

One thing I realized. This appears to be a change in their privacy policy for _US_ PayPal. If you are not in USA (ie, Canada), then it likely won’t be there as it’s not rolling out to you.

For me: I opened the app, navigated to Profile > “Data and privacy” > “Personalized shopping” (under “Manage shared info” header) > toggle off “Let us share products, offers, and rewards you might like with participating stores”

Haven’t checked on paypal.com

blackeyeblitzar

15 hours ago

It’d also ridiculous that I can only delete my data by closing my account.

LegitShady

14 hours ago

option 2 - delete your paypal account, you dont need it.

zaptrem

15 hours ago

> No matter where you live, you’ll always be able to exercise your right to opt out of this data sharing by updating your preference settings in your account under “Data and Privacy.”

There is currently no opt out button or switch on this page on their website when signed in through either my personal or business account.

Edit: Someone further down direct linked to it here https://www.paypal.com/myaccount/privacy/settings/recommenda...

No idea how they got this screen, as when I click back it gives me the same menu I saw before where this option doesn’t exist and the website design is different.

kelnos

13 hours ago

I managed to get there through the main privacy settings screen, but I'm a California resident, so PayPal is legally required to give me that option. Perhaps you live somewhere else? But maybe PayPal hasn't removed access to the setting, just the link to it?

sourcepluck

14 hours ago

I have tried to delete my PayPal account on ten different occasions (I mean, something like that), and never succeed to do so. A maze of dark patterns and crappy UI and buttons that go nowhere. I even sent a couple of emails one of the times, and then gave up when there was no response. They're a heinous company.

dghlsakjg

14 hours ago

I battled this. Turns out the key was to get the CFPB involved. Within a few weeks I received a letter of explanation from their legal department and my account was deleted.

Companies hate getting a letter from regulatory agencies because it frequently has to be dealt with in part by legal, which is an expensive department to clog.

Edit: I see you are in Europe. So the above doesn’t directly apply, although there may be a regulatory agency that is equivalent that you can gripe to.

Symbiote

5 hours ago

The option "Close Account" is halfway down the page under "Settings". So just a single press to find it after logging in.

(EU here.)

OJFord

3 hours ago

Been there, tried that.

You must first provide photo ID, name, address, phone number - all sorts of data not presently on the account - in order to verify identity to delete the account.

And then of course they'll retain it all under the guise of financial regulation (legitimately) and probably sell it (scummily).

latexr

14 hours ago

Anecdotally, I deleted my PayPal account a few weeks ago and found it pretty easy. I’m in Europe, which may have made the difference.

sourcepluck

14 hours ago

I'm in Europe! I haven't tried in ages, a few years I suppose. I'm going to try again, bolstered by your comment. Thank you, kind netizen. Maybe they've been obliged to stop messing around as much with some of the new laws of the past years.

kelnos

13 hours ago

I see you're in Europe; don't you have a regulatory body you can contact to help you deal with this? I assume account deletion is a requirement covered by the GDPR.

Symbiote

5 hours ago

The option "Close Account" is halfway down the page under "Settings". So just a single press to find it after logging in.

(EU here.)

OJFord

3 hours ago

Yeah good luck with that.

Threatening that (or just using keywords like GDPR) works great for most companies when you can't find it on the website or mailing list has no unsubscribe link or whatever, but you're forgetting quite how much of a scummy company PayPal is.

javiramos

2 hours ago

Does anyone know of a browser plugin or similar that could summarize, in real-time as I browse, a given website’s privacy and data use policy. Seems like reading through lengthy and verbose privacy policies could be great application of LLMs.

javiramos

2 hours ago

Does anyone know if Venmo has a similar policy? Lately I’ve been trying to use apple pay/cash as much as I can for peer to peer payments but Venmo is still quite popular.

usehackernews

13 hours ago

I work in Payments.

This must be related to their new product - Fastlane.

Fastlane is an express checkout product, similar to ShopPay. Even if you have never used a website, you authenticate with OTP and all your information (Address & Payment Methods) is available.

Originally, merchants could not use this data to make customer accounts. This was not ideal for us merchants as there was no method to login to track your order information.

PayPal came to me this week saying they were updating their legal agreement to allow merchants to create customer accounts.

(Express checkout options will soon be everywhere - Stripe, Shopify, PayPal, Zelle/Paze are all competing in this space now)

kelnos

13 hours ago

> This was not ideal for us merchants as there was no method to login to track your order information.

You don't need accounts for that. Allow customers to check their order status using the order number and some other identifying bit that you are allowed to get/keep, such as last name or billing zip code. Merchants have been doing this since the very start of e-commerce. (If you can't keep anything, then just make the order numbers long random strings, and use that alone, and/or generate a random, unique URL to send in the order confirmation email.)

If a merchant creates an account for me without my consent, I delete that account and never buy from them again.

Stop abusing your customers' personal information. I'm glad I live in California, and have already opted out to PayPal sharing my information for this, as is my legal right.

hakfoo

11 hours ago

Or email them the actual tracking number.

I don't need to go to your website to read the same information as usps.com but in a different header.

dgregd

7 hours ago

How is that different from Apple Pay or Google Pay, where you click one button and provide all your card details to a new merchant?

noname120

17 hours ago

Is it only in the US? My PayPal account is from Switzerland. I haven't received an email and the option doesn't appear in "Data and Privacy" either.

xyst

17 hours ago

yes - appears to be only US, for now.

edit: updated title to add (USA)

kevin_thibedeau

17 hours ago

US PayPal is not a bank. Other incarnations are and will be subject to the relevant banking regulations.

actionfromafar

16 hours ago

Ha, I forgot about that. The US Freedom is really shiny over at Paypal, a bank free to not follow banking regulations, and no pesky liberal privacy, except in California.

autoexec

17 hours ago

PayPal has always been a disaster. There have been so many stories of people having their accounts frozen for long periods of time while whatever passes for "customer service" at PayPal jerked them around or outright ignored them that I stopped using PayPal a very long time ago and I've never once regretted it.

I see that paypalsucks.com is gone now. Not sure when that happened (archive.org is down too), but really, people have had more than enough warning about what a shit company PayPal is, so anyone continuing to get screwed over by them now is pretty much asking for it.

OrvalWintermute

13 hours ago

Will be axing my paypal account if this goes through

kelnos

13 hours ago

That's not an "if". They're doing it. I'd suggest you start the deletion process now; I hear it's tricky if you live in a place without decent privacy laws.

OJFord

3 hours ago

I've been trying for years in a place with GDPR.

wintermutestwin

17 hours ago

The whole reason why I use paypal for some purchases is to keep the vendor from knowing my PII.

Paypal Enshitification level = 11

toomuchtodo

16 hours ago

Is privacy.com an option for you? Disposable virtual payment card numbers and whatnot.

dynm

16 hours ago

Strongly recommend not using privacy.com. It's full of dark patterns and has lots of crazy behaviors like randomly locking your account and demanding good old picture of you with photo ID. For a privacy focused service, this is hilarious.

toomuchtodo

14 hours ago

This has not been my experience using it for years. You should expect KYC (know your customer) processes and requirements for any financial service provider with a US nexus or interconnection to US financial infrastructure.

If you’re attempting to be completely anonymous with regards to value transfer, crypto and cash are your only potential options. The privacy, in this use case, is from other parties between you and the merchant (and including the merchant, if you’re not providing PI).

beeflet

9 hours ago

I couldn't even sign up and create a virtual card. The reason? "An error has occurred, please contact support or try again later".

Yeah I don't think so, you had one job privacy.com

tdeck

17 hours ago

Doesn't the vendor get your name and address when paying through PayPal?

mrkramer

17 hours ago

S/he probably meant payment information as credit card number, cvv etc. And there was no way before this for merchant X to know what Alice or Bob bought from merchant Y.

AStonesThrow

17 hours ago

PayPal already shares enough contact info for the purpose of shipping when I order physical goods.

This new sharing appears to consist of marketing data on items you shop for, not necessarily PII, unless you consider your inseam to be classified top secret.

xyst

17 hours ago

What PayPal lists in the Privacy Policy for the US is only an example. I interpreted the change as “PayPal collects any number of information on you. Gives you seemingly innocuous data such as inseam. But in reality, we may collect political affiliation, contacts, salary information, and share that with retailers that want our data”

raytopia

14 hours ago

Are there payment companies that don't sell user's data?

grahamj

15 hours ago

Glad I deleted my account some time ago

sub7

11 hours ago

These asshats also have the world's worst OTP page that does not auto submit when you type out the 6 numbers and still doesn't submit on pressing Enter.

Everytime I have to move my mouse to the Submit button, I think about how their UX to nickel and dime microfees from you is super slick.