pvg
an hour ago
For the context, the video this is a follow up to is helpful (they're both short) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlHvW6k2bcM
an hour ago
For the context, the video this is a follow up to is helpful (they're both short) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlHvW6k2bcM
8 hours ago
John Carlos Baez thinks Sabine has a point.
https://mathstodon.xyz/@johncarlosbaez/113285631281744111
>Despite the silly clickbait title of this video, Sabine says a lot of interesting stuff in it: her criticism of claimed deviations from Lorentz invariance in loop quantum gravity is about as good as you'll get from anyone who hasn't actually worked on loop quantum gravity. I worked on it for about 10 years, and the situation is even a bit worse than she makes it sound.
an hour ago
I know people have strong reactions to her and her sensational style, but that is a serious recommendation from a knowledgeable person, so I think we can give this thread a second chance. (Someone emailed and asked us to.)
All: please let's keep the comments on topic and substantive (and avoid the sensationalism and personality aspects).
an hour ago
She was ripping on the valuations and economics of quantum computing companies the other week, and her critiques were such that they could be levelled against capitalism itself and basically any company in the market. Was an obvious and clear step way out of her area of expertise.
an hour ago
That doesn't have anything to do with her criticism of Loop Quantum Gravity, and is precisely the derailing of the topic that dang is asking you to avoid.
an hour ago
When people don’t have expertise in an area they are prone to making really dumb comments. She has a history of this on other topics. As such I think it’s appropriate to mention so that people can evaluate how much weight/time they want to spend on her video and views.
36 minutes ago
Do you have expertise in the area of deciding source trustworthiness or relevancy in certain fields?
an hour ago
> John Carlos Baez
For those like me who didn't know, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Baez
> John Carlos Baez (/ˈbaɪ.ɛz/;[2] born June 12, 1961) is an American mathematical physicist and a professor of mathematics at the University of California, Riverside (UCR)[3] in Riverside, California. He has worked on spin foams in loop quantum gravity, applications of higher categories to physics, and applied category theory. Additionally, Baez is known on the World Wide Web as the author of the crackpot index.
an hour ago
He was also a long-time maintainer of the Usenet Physics FAQ and has been writing about physics and mathematics on the internet for decades. So not only is he the real deal in terms of knowledge, he also has a long history of communicating that knowledge to the public, albeit typically for a more advanced audience.
22 minutes ago
He is better known within physics as the author of This Week's Finds in Mathematical Physics, an archive of which is at https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/TWF.html. His more current blog is available at https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/.
an hour ago
And https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=johncarlosbaez!
Perhaps he'll contribute to this thread (or perhaps it would waste his time)
an hour ago
And he was known on Usenet and sci.physics before the World Wide Web was invented...
42 minutes ago
30 years ago I spoke to a fairly well known and regarded physicist who said something rather interesting along the same lines. Quoting as accurately as I can "physics looks sexy from the outside due to some celebrities but inside it's mostly worse than anyone wants to admit.". He also suggested I go and study mathematics instead because at least there will likely be some applications for it. I did and I am glad I did.
25 minutes ago
My understanding of the situation (which may be wrong, in which case please let me know) is that physics is stuck at a local optimum.
There are two obvious ways to get out
(1) Surprising physical observations, or
(2) Mathematical advances
Way (1) is what kicked off quantum mechanics. Way (2) is what kicked off Newtonian mechanics.
I see string theorists and loop quantum gravity people as working on (2). Their models are mathematically interesting and aren't totally understood from a mathematical perspective. But they're different enough that studying them may break the impasse.
I see (1) as largely limited by the budgets and technology needed to build things like particle accelerators and spacecraft.
For (2) you have to decide whether to only explore mathematics that defines physical reality, or whether to also allow exploration of non-physical systems. For example, you might explore a universe that is almost physical but has time machines. Restricting the search space to only physically realistic systems is a significant constraint, so there's a debate to be be had about how much weight to give it.
an hour ago
If LQG turns out to be unworkable, we're back at string theory as the only renomalizable description of quantum gravity.
Quantum gravity research amounts to one professor per university faculty on average. Even in the worst case this would not be the crisis of unmet expectations it is made out to be... QG researchers are very brave because they are risking everything on the possibility that existing data constrains quantum gravity in a way that hasn't yet been understood. I doubt there is even a single person making that gamble unaware that the Planck energy density is something like 20 orders of magnitude above present-day experiments.
7 hours ago
The fundamental reason for this is simple. Humans are prone to cognitive dissonance. Meaning, we do absurd things to avoid painful thoughts. And anything that questions our sense of identity, is a painful thought.
So if my self-image is, "I've advanced our understanding of the fundamental nature of reality," then the idea that my contributions weren't useful becomes painful. So we avoid thinking it, challenge people who question our past contributions, and so on.
The natural result of this cognitive dissonance is a feeling of undue certainty in our speculations. After all certainty is merely a belief that one idea is easy to believe and its opposites are hard to believe. We imagine that our certitudes are based on fact. But they more easily arise from cognitive biases.
And this is how a group of intelligent and usually rational people descend into theology whose internal contradictions can't be acknowledged.
9 minutes ago
> So if my self-image is, "I've advanced our understanding of the fundamental nature of reality," then the idea that my contributions weren't useful becomes painful.
Only if one believes the logical fallacy that the dependent steps of a process of elimination weren't useful.
an hour ago
This is beautifully articulated.
And reinforces my general below-the-line (layperson) fear about the state of physics today (as reinforced ofc by the likes of Sabine Hossenfelder & Eric Weinstein).
30 minutes ago
Thank you for the compliment.
I've been working on how to formulate that idea clearly for a while. It is a problem that goes well beyond physics. For example I believe that the same cognitive error is behind the fact that experts do significantly worse than chance in actually predicting the world, and the more certain the expert sounds, the less likely they are to be right. See https://www.amazon.com/Expert-Political-Judgment-Good-Know/d... for data demonstrating that fact.
Depressingly, this means that we consistently put public policy in the hands of people who are demonstrably incompetent.
an hour ago
[flagged]
an hour ago
"Don't be snarky."
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
(I'm sure you could rephrase your point here as a substantive thought in a respectful way and then it would be fine)
an hour ago
It's in the video: LQG is not a promising, or even a plausible, physical theory. That's the idea.
21 minutes ago
> What's even more insane is that the only two people I can think of who have pushed back against this are Peter Woit and Eric Weinstein, and both of them are trying to sell you their own theory of everything
Sabine forgot Stephen.
https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2021/11/the-concept-of-t...
an hour ago
I think in this an other videos, what she says is "they are not even wrong" and she does have a point there.
an hour ago
As a non-physicist, it’s hard to understand if she has a point or not.
Any physicists care to weigh in?
an hour ago
Follow the links to John Baez's thoughts ("the situation is even a bit worse than she makes it sound"): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41808143
38 minutes ago
I've said this before in not the same words, and I am always downvoted here on hackernews: people need to understand theory of knowledge before they understand science. Physics and physicists are the worst offenders.
an hour ago
Theoretical physics are theoretical; that seems to be the crux of her problem. And in that light it makes sense that she's become an influencer who makes content instead of someone who devotes most of their time to advancing the science. Yes, oftentimes people will be paid to work on problems, and they'll end up in a cul-de-sac. That will be the case for the majority of the field in the case of something like quantum physics. But if we pay enough of these people to sit in rooms and work on problems, maybe one of them will figure something out. That's how science progresses.
35 minutes ago
> enough of these people
There’s more than enough already. (And, historically, you only need less than a dozen.)
33 minutes ago
> (And, historically, you only need less than a dozen.)
This seems initially like a pretty outlandish claim to me. Could you clarify what you're referring to here?
4 minutes ago
I'm not the one you're replying to, but the claim seems very reasonable to me.
Fundamental breakthroughs in how to think about scientific subjects usually are created by fairly small groups of people. A lot more people are involved in popularizing it, and then filling out the details. But it is rare for it to start with a large number of people.
For example that list in the case of quantum mechanics was Max Planck, Albert Einstein, Niels Bohr, Louis de Broglie, Max Born, Paul Dirac, Werner Heisenberg, Wolfgang Pauli, and Erwin Schrödinger.
You can think of this as the scientific version of the 2 pizza rule.
an hour ago
Eh, there is theoretical and then there is intentionally untestable, like string theory.
Just because you pay a bunch of people to sit in a room and think of things, doesn’t mean they’re doing science. It could just as easily be theology.
an hour ago
I think that you have half a point. You're absolutely right that just because people are paid to think about things, doesn't mean that they are making progress. And there is a lot of evidence that this is true today in the foundations of physics.
However string theory was not intentionally untestable. In https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRzQDyw5C3M she gives a good history of why it was originally invented, what testable predictions it made, how it failed those tests. And then how string theorists who were trying to find relevance for their work tried to keep it going as it stumbled into being untestable.
44 minutes ago
This is a very cruel reading of string theory. Intentional? What?
an hour ago
Exactly. Consistently untestable and unfalsifiable claims for decades has to be seriously questioned at some point, and I think we're well beyond that point. This is especially true for string theory. I'm particularly fond of how Angela Collier laid out the timeline of string theory in her video on it[0] as well as the consequences that science communication is now facing as a result.
an hour ago
The same could've been said of atomic theory, neutrinos, gravitational waves, the higgs boson, cmb radiation, plate tectonics, and quantum mechanics at various points in time.
37 minutes ago
That statement is only true for a few of the things on your list..
Yes, it took a couple of decades to test the existence of neutrinos. But, for example, general relativity was successfully tested within 5 years of being published. Gravitational waves were a prediction that took decades before we could test them, but the theory itself had lots of other verifications.
To date string theory has had many predictions that leads to failed tests. But not a single successful test in its favor.
an hour ago
Weren't those all arrived at from a series of falsifiable predictions? What does string theory even predict that can be tested?
40 minutes ago
As a non string theorist my understanding was that string theory actually makes quite a lot of empirically verifiable statements, just that those statements are only interesting at either never or extremely high energies.
I think ppl are asuming that sting theory comes from the meme about turning 1+1 = 2 into some massive integro differential equation. The world is rarely so simple.
22 minutes ago
I’ve heard that it also predicts at very low precision, some values that are practically measurable, and, unsurprisingly for how little precision these predictions have, these predictions are correct (I.e. the experimental results are within the predicted range).
(Or, maybe “a prediction” rather than “predictions”? I only heard about one, and I forget what it was.)
a minute ago
I am aware of no case where it clearly made an advance prediction of any behavior that later turned out to be true.
I'm aware of quite a few where they managed to "predict" something we already knew.
That said, they've made so many "predictions" that I'm sure that some likely worked out by sheer coincidence.
39 minutes ago
You are making it sound as though string theorists are asserting some kind of flying spaghetti monster theory. Do you think these people are not genuinely interested in advancing science? That's an ad hom fallacy. There is a difference between a hypothesis being conceptually unfalsifiable and a hypothesis that is incredibly difficult to test from a practical standpoint, or impossible with present energy constraints.
20 minutes ago
I don’t think the mistake made is exactly an ad hom fallacy? I agree with the rest of your comment though.
41 minutes ago
How is it "intentionally untestable"? I get that it is practically untestable, but as far as I know, there are people working to try to find some possible tests.
an hour ago
There is no evidence to suggest that string theorists designed the theory to be untestable.