Bitcoin creator is Peter Todd, HBO film says

18 pointsposted 9 months ago
by tzury

28 Comments

kyledrake

9 months ago

I spent quite a bit of time with Peter Todd in the very early Bitcoin days. I really enjoyed our conversations back then, I have no idea what he is up to now. My gut feeling is that he is probably not Satoshi Nakamoto. Adam Back is a far more likely suspect, particularly for his British english, which Satoshi wrote in.

philsquared_

9 months ago

+1 to Adam Back. Who is more likely to build ontop of some obscure code base called "Hash Cash"? Some random people that trolled the same forums or the original creator of it?

Imo this "secret" is known by many people as I have seen so many censorship and misdirection campaigns throughout the years if people mention Adam being the one.

Him being Satoshi also makes bitcoin core seem more legitimate. He can guide his creation without being formally known as satoshi.

It is obvious. Especially if you have ever been a solo dev for an extended period of time (like adam was)

There is a ton more evidence but seems like no one really wants to dig into Adam.

Adam literally stopped updating hash cash and a year later Bitcoin is released... check his website on archive.org.

Its ok. I like that there is still conversation as to who it is. It gives protection to him since there likely wont be anything concrete (if hopefully he was slick enough)

kyledrake

9 months ago

Indeed there's really nothing positive to be had from coming out as Satoshi at this point regardless of who it is. Criminals and governments will be falling over each other to try to get their take.

kyledrake

9 months ago

One addendum here: If I was personally Satoshi, I would come back and try to convince everyone to switch to proof of stake instead of proof of work and then subsequently disappear again. If you need a non-politicized reason why (something other than climate change), just go with my joke one of solving one of the outcomes of Fermi's Paradox (distant civilizations don't send signals because all energy is used to mine cryptocurrencies).

nullc

9 months ago

Proof of stake doesn't solve the problem bitcoin set out to solve.

A proof of stake system is essentially just a rehash on the earlier centralized digital cash systems where a quorum of key holders engage in a consensus that determines further updates to the system (including the set of keys allowed to authorize further updates).

We didn't need Satoshi to come up with that, that idea was already known.

kyledrake

9 months ago

I don't follow your reasoning. It seems to me that at an abstract level, Satoshi set out to solve the problem of government meddling in currencies by creating a distributed digital currency not managed by a governmental agency with a predictable and well documented amount of money supply growth. Whether it uses a PoW or PoS approach seems irrelevant to that goal? PoS can lead to centralization if larger stakeholders have more influence over the network, but the same problem applies to PoW as well, and the large miners' substantial influence on Bitcoin development politics feels more like corporatism than distributed consensus. I haven't really been following things lately, but Ethereum seems to be transitioning to PoS as a distributed system just fine?

Neither approach seems perfect, the important difference to me is that one approach, sans some technological advance like fusion energy, presents a major ecological problem that has existential risks for humanity.

bbunix

9 months ago

Canadian English isn't that far off, especially in a lot of the spelling...

jawiggins

9 months ago

Just finished watching the doc on HBO.

The key piece of evidence seems to be this comment from Peter Todd: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2181.msg28739#msg287...

It stands out to the producers because: 1) Peter makes it just after joining the form, so he is unlikely to have detailed knowledge of bitcoin. 2) He seems to be finishing Satoshi's thought, as though he returned to an earlier post forgetting which account he was signed into. 3) The post happens just before Satoshi disappears and Peter leaves for a few years.

The doc also features many scenes with Peter and Adam Back where their eyes kind of shift around and they laugh awkwardly when asked about certain things. Since the doc it seems that Peter has taken to twitter to say he was mislead about the purpose of the interviews.

I've always kind of thought that Satoshi was probably one person who built it all in isolation, and I never played much attention to theories that Satoshi was actually multiple people. After watching the doc it does seem like Adam and Peter know a good deal more than they are letting on, even if they aren't behind it all, it seems likely that they have some idea who it was.

nullc

9 months ago

The forum is/was public, so there is no reason to create an account until you're planning to post something or send a private message.

Why is this my first post on bitcoin-dev: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2011... ?

I'm sure you've heard the adage, "It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it."

But online when you're silent you're not thought of as a fool-- you just don't even exist at all. Many of us whose contribution to world is primarily our knowledge and insight often prefer to self-educate to an advanced level on a subject before commenting on it at all.

My first bitcoin-dev post wasn't actually my first public comments on Bitcoin, but I'd read the entire bitcoin code base before ever saying anything about it...

It's not surprising to see Bitcoin developer people emerge from nowhere somewhat well informed, even back then (though to be fair fairly few people really understood txn internals).

I've known Peter and Adam for a very long time. Both have resting smirkface. Petertodd grins like he ate the canary any time he says something even the slightest bit clever. Adam too, now that I say it, though the clever threshold is a bit higher. That combined with talented editing can probably make either of them look guilty of whatever you want, or at least anything that they enjoy talking about.

px43

9 months ago

Oh hey Greg :-D Did you watch the movie yet? Was fun.

I'm definitely still team Dave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Kleiman

Last time I talked to Peter was in 2019 and he was making fun of me for spending Bitcoins continuously since 2011, and said Bitcoins are supposed to be hoarded like gold or something, not used as money. Definitely not the attitude of someone who supposedly burned the million Satoshi coins (which was a claim from the movie, I guess some leaked IRC transcript or something). I wouldn't be surprised if the leaked transcript came from Peter himself. He seems to get off on weird deception plays like that.

nullc

9 months ago

The bitcoin IRC logs are public, the segment in the documentary is from the bitcoin-wizards channel (e.g. https://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/). There are a number of public interfaces to them, I didn't catch which one the documentary was using.

It doesn't say anything that support's the documentary's thesis, Petertood is talking about provably destroying coins in order to mint identities and similar. This couldn't apply to the coins alleged by some to belong to Satoshi, as they haven't moved.

Almost all of Bitcoin's history is completely public, but sadly the wealth of information seems to just enable conspiracy theorists to allege that there is more hidden.

> I'm definitely still team Dave.

I'm so tired of dealing with the victims of Wright's nonsense. It's gross. Posts like this are like a IV drug user showing off their radical track marks.

nullc

9 months ago

The logs from the end of the documentary are available here: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizards/2013/05/13-0...

For whatever reason the documentary presented those logs as coming from another site which never has had logs for that channel prior to 2015. I have no clue why but it probably made it much harder for for many people to find.

kyledrake

9 months ago

It's hard not to be a little coy when you helped build something that usually takes an empire to build with some bad code and a few hundred loosely affiliated weirdos on the internet. I still don't think most laypeople (or honestly most people in the "crypto" space) really understand the significance of what was invented with Bitcoin.

par

9 months ago

Pretty sure the guy who goes around saying "I am Satoshi" is not, in fact, Satoshi.

hprotagonist

9 months ago

I said to him, ‘What disguise will hide me from the world? What can I find more respectable than bishops and majors?’ He looked at me with his large but indecipherable face. ‘You want a safe disguise, do you? You want a dress which will guarantee you harmless; a dress in which no one would ever look for a bomb?’ I nodded. He suddenly lifted his lion’s voice. ‘Why, then, dress up as an anarchist, you fool!’ he roared so that the room shook. ‘Nobody will ever expect you to do anything dangerous then.’ And he turned his broad back on me without another word. I took his advice, and have never regretted it. I preached blood and murder to those women day and night, and—by God!—they would let me wheel their perambulators.”

mastazi

9 months ago

I was thinking about possible motives for Satoshi to be out of the limelight and now I have a question for those of us who have significant security/signint/encryption experience:

Given the info we have, what are the chances that state actors, such as intelligence agencies, are aware beyond doubt of Satoshi Nakamoto's true identity?

The28thDuck

9 months ago

What kind of edge does such intel give? Their work (bitcoin) spawned thousands and thousands of people who have taken the foundational technology and made many improvements to it. It seems like trying to figure out who they are incentivizes hobbyists to figure it out rather than state sponsors.

mastazi

9 months ago

Yeah good point, they probably don't care.

sciencesama

9 months ago

Its super easy to prove !! Show the sha

joeyagreco

9 months ago

> Todd reportedly denied he was the bitcoin creator: "Of course I'm not Satoshi," he said.

kyledrake

9 months ago

The genesis block has a message from a relatively obscure British newspaper in it (The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks). Not something I would expect a frontier Canadian in their 20s to be sourcing from.

That and various other evidence (coding style, british-english spelling) has suggested to me for a long time that it's an older gentleman from the UK, likely with an academic background in economics or related distributed systems. I don't know either way, but it seems borderline libel to suggest without much more substantial evidence that it's Peter Todd.

nullc

9 months ago

The Times is not an obscure paper, but if you'd like some fodder: the headline Satoshi used is from the print edition rather than the online edition which was different.

That said, Satoshi was clearly extremely diligent in concealing their identity, and so they may well have purposefully decided to use a headline that they wouldn't have had ordinary access too-- when someone is trying to conceal themselves it creates an environment which is hostile to logical reasoning. Any point which could point one direction might instead point the opposite or in a random direction.

costco

9 months ago

Satoshi connected to IRC from a residential IP address in Los Angeles in 2009. So there was a point in time where all it would have taken was a subpoena to find him. Now those records probably don't exist. Unless that was a Tor exit or one of those socks5 proxy type services. I remember there was an archive of the Tor consensus files going back really far that I can no longer find, so it'd be possible to check if it was.

nullc

9 months ago

> Satoshi connected to IRC from a residential IP address in Los Angeles in 2009.

Maybe, that claim is pretty speculative and shouldn't be repeated as established fact.

I agree with the rest of your points, though there were a lot of proxies other than tor. In particular, there were well known forums you could post on to get private proxies -- often used for kinda shady astroturfing and similar. So excluding tor alone isn't sufficient. Tor wouldn't have been as useful for Satoshi's bitcoin usage because he couldn't run a node over it that accepted inbound connections.

yieldcrv

9 months ago

Oof polymarket betters rekt