Orban moving fast: Endorsement of ChatControl on the agenda for Wednesday

15 pointsposted 9 months ago
by rapnie

9 Comments

anonzzzies

9 months ago

Ugh, every few months this; clueless people trying to try to get us into a worse situation. Why is this not a veto-able thing unlike other EU things? I am actually not for veto rights in most cases, however, as Orban tends to veto everything nice, it would be nice if that can happen here too.

spwa4

9 months ago

The EU is designed so that democratic votes cannot override what the "executive" wants. Between quotes because it's the executive, the EU commission, not the EU parliament, that has legislative powers, as well as direct power over the judiciary. The EU commission, and council (which are the same people) hold ALL powers, legislative, executive and judiciary in the EU. The parliament cannot even start discussing a subject without asking the commission first.

It's frankly a miracle that it took so long.

Oh and this is by design, because the EU's existence has been put up for a vote 3 times now. 3 times the people of the EU voted against (first time indirectly, by electing and supporting Charles De Gaulle, second and third time directly. And that's being generous because in total there were more than 3 actual votes). So as you can imagine, being an organization that's been asked to disappear by voters 3 times now, they're ... how to put this ... not fans of elections anymore. Hell, the first vote against the EU involved the French state trying to execute the leader of the EU. Not once, twice (Robert Shuman was a Vichy Nazi collaborator, and the president of France was the guy who defeated the Nazis, as a president he was ... less than enthousiastic about "European unification" efforts by ex-Nazi collaborators for reasons that I imagine even your cat understands)

Of course the "statesmen" case to have the EU is pretty damn strong. It essentially boils down that in a world with China, Russia, US and the muslim block having separate small EU countries will lead to disaster. I imagine most people here will agree. But if history made one thing clear ... the EU citizenry really fucking damn doesn't want to.

So the EU has mechanisms to override democratic votes and they are VERY opposed to changing that, especially after the EU tried to "be more in line with democratic principles" in trade for more support and legitimacy, with the Lisbon treaty. The outcome of that boondoggle was yet another vote that the EU shouldn't exist, which of course means the EU now has less power, less support and less legitimacy. To add serious insult to brutal injury, as far as Brussels/Strasbourg is concerned, the list of misbehaving member states is now about half the total (meaning member states directly violating EU legislation. Examples: France, borders, Germany, borgers, Netherland, immigrants, Poland, judiciary reform, Hungary, uh, everything? Greece, budget + Turkey issues immigrants and Cyprus, Italy, immigrants, Spain, budget, Sweden and Switzerland, currency, UK, Brexit + Northern Ireland + customs union, ...)

polotics

9 months ago

Mmpf, Switzerland is not part of the EU!

spwa4

9 months ago

That depends what you mean by that. In reality there's many international treaties that are administered by the organization people refer to as the EU.

Schengen - Free movement of people, goods and capital - Switzerland is part of this

Single internal market - Switzerland is 99% part of this

Monetary union - Switzerland doesn't take part

EU, same name, NOT the same thing, perhaps it should be called "Lisbon treaty countries" (but of course the EU organization would really prefer everyone forget about the Lisbon treaty) - Switzerland chooses on a case-by-case basis to take part or not

(of course you could say that in practice every large EU member state has now chosen to select which EU law they're subject to and which they're not subject to. Is that legal? No it isn't. Nobody cares, or at least not in the member state. That now includes France, Germany, Italy and Poland, and, in a way, UK. The way things are currently moving I highly doubt this will reverse in the next decade or so. So, really, the "Swiss way" of EU membership is expanding, not contracting, it's just that the EU really, really hates this happening)

Frankly Switzerland is a part of the EU in practice and has the best possible position a country could have in the EU. All the goodies, very few of the costs.

sofixa

9 months ago

Regardless of merits of "ChatControl" and the feasibility of it actually becoming law (IMO pretty low, I don't see the current parliament approving it), the EUCHR will probably strike it down as against human rights:

https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng/?i=001-230854

raxxorraxor

9 months ago

I hope so and I don't believe people can rely on the EUGH to defend civil rights.

We need a law to box law drafts that failed multiple times. Suggesting new forms of surveillance month after month isn't feasible.

Also, my country is not competent enough to really look at internet comments in a detached manner. The society just doesn't have the necessary maturity. And even then, it is nothing anyone should strive for.

jauntywundrkind

9 months ago

Ten twenty years ago it was there was this notion of "Advanced Persistent Threats" out to disrupt civilization. It feels like the current civil threat is persistent authoritarians, persistent terrormongers. I fret so much how it seems like backsliding is the only direction, that their persistent pull towards fear can keep being resisted, until eventually in the wrong time & the wrong place society falls a little further back again. Again and again and again. What pests this world must constantly redeem ourselves from.

johnisgood

9 months ago

Would this actually affect IM apps in practice? I can always use FOSS IM programs, right? I am Hungarian and this whole ChatControl thing is messed up.

user

9 months ago

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