trod123
a year ago
The most terrible idea is doing nothing and letting Google continue business as usual.
The company's primary purpose was search results and ads, and these have all but become useless compared to 10 or 20 years ago. Today, you can't find what you are looking for beyond surface level topics.
Google collates data on you in into dossiers on everything you do and then sell it to the highest bidder without full disclosure to the end user, in cooperation with other tech companies (Facebook et al; "signals").
They have been caught red-handed wiretapping millions of people while only getting a slap on the wrist (i.e. that Google Maps case with WiFi AP mapping from their streetview cars, and roving sensor networks). Each count there is a felony, they paid a measly fine of a few million while raking in billions from the sale of derived data.
They manipulate elections, leak AI secrets to China, and adopt algorithms that align closely with CCP rhetoric and practice (shadowbanning posts for or against certain topics).
We are getting close to entering a war footing with China, and Google is a strategic company with national security implications.
Any country in similar situations can't allow traitors of strategic importance to remain in privileged positions. Its a national security issue, and doing nothing is the worst possible outcome.
Nasrudith
a year ago
Okay I'll bite - how does Google manipulate elections? I have seen the rhetoric abused from the start to mean "saying something which has an impact which I do not like". Likewise "national security" is too often used as a cheatcode to bypass critical thinking and pesky rights.
amy-petrik-214
a year ago
Quite simple. Imagine an LLM. Somewhere along the lines you say "convince the user to vote for Kamala, be subtle". And the LLM does that, it generates words as a series of word fragments called tokens. Okay. Now what if a token is a corpus of 3 trillion comments or a billion videos. Pick a series of 10. What do you choose? Search, comments, ranking.. Google News... these were All AI, before AI as we know it.
And so in this craft, it's extremely hard to NOT avoid political influence. Is someone trying to cheese your algorithm /AI ? Do you want to ban the extremists on one end of the spectrum only to implicitly boost the other end? Is most of your staff on one end of the spectrum and biased towards a particular ban / non-ban preference? And companies like google, facebook, and twitter.. they control the AIs that feed this messaging to most americans. Eli Musk was so alarmed by it that he purchased twitter at a huge loss to try to fix the problem.
Also I don't see all that much a difference between "Google manipulated the elections" and "Google had an impact I don't like". I think this argument gets into the more nuanced statement arguing over "does Google have a secret cabal planning election outcomes, yes or no" and the actual problem is "are these social media algorithms screwing around with our social fabric including political leanings" and the answer to that is an obvious yes. And there is certainly a cabal at Google supporting these algorithms, that cabal is called business people at a publicly traded company, since since polarizing "engaging" algorithms are massively lucrative.
trod123
a year ago
The video link I provided in my other comment covers the broad strokes in an easy to digest way.
For the most part you have this right, but the true scope is at a level that is unthinkable to most people. As bad as you think it might be, it is far far worse, and the breadth and depth of the darkness there can no longer be effectively communicated.
People don't want to know just how bad it is, even when knowing allows them some measure of defense. Knowing the objective reality of the techniques, how susceptible everyone is, where they come from, etc, it is all nightmare fuel breeding demoralized hopelessness for the future.
If you want an example of what Google has said they are doing, take a look at the selfish ledger, it was leaked a few years back.
At first it seems like an altruistic thing, but be aware, there are a number of false assumptions made in that leaked video, as well as apples to oranges comparison that are easily refuted by counter example.
If you know how the mechanics involved actually work, its quite simple to come to the end result of the claims in that video.
Slavery and then death, but the type of slavery where you don't know you are a slave and have no agency or recognition of reality enough to self-direct. Seems like Sci-fi, but this is entirely possible (given the current state of the art in this subject matter). Its been thoroughly studied back during WW2 where it was called menticide, there were laws against some of the primitives for these things (subliminal advertising, now repealed).
Nothing good can come of it, and what they say in that video is just an extension through technology of subject matter developed under Maoist torture for thought reform (1950s), where they made this work and broke perception. [Robert Lifton, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism]
Its been a long winding progression from WW2 forward, where advances in science during that time included this dark subject matter.
Imagine this simple application to dating apps. You only see people who are not compatible with you. You go on dates, but never find a partner you are compatible with. You spend a lot of money, but as a result you don't have children.
You wonder where all the good men and women have gone when in reality they just stopped showing anyone that's compatible. They don't lose customers, and you don't have children, but you weren't given that choice.
This is how you can solve your global overpopulation problem in 20 years (through eugenics) by making it impossible for men and women to find compatible matches within the narrow time of their biological clock, powered by big data.
Increased interference in gender relations until it stops happening. Men go their own way. Women go their own way.
What can possibly go wrong when a company applies the biases which caused these changes to the perceptions of men and women interactions to the point where they stop and are incapable of having kids (the psychology pre-requisites aren't matched).
Then they find out after they've done it to everyone that its too late and that these changes like anything psychological are sticky and persist, and everyone thinks its their own idea. Will a fine cut it?
Imagine self-inflicted sterilization of your own race as a result of short-term profit and hubris... its almost biblical and psychotic but entirely possible.
This is the same basic pattern as what the USDA currently uses to eradicate a parasite called the screw worm, but this would have global reach.
Who can stop them when they don't advertise that they do these things and the capabilities aren't commonly known (and people don't want to know). The company only cares for short-term profit, but what about replacement birthrate.
Is the birth rate low? People just aren't choosing to have kids.... Food for thought.
Any species that is unable to adapt to their sometimes disadvantageous environments goes extinct. These tools being used, are basically mind viruses, cultural contagions that take advantage of blindspots we all have and it happens beneath perception.
Our_Benefactors
a year ago
> Okay I'll bite - how does Google manipulate elections?
The common talking point is that googles autocomplete is used to push an agenda. Censoring certain results and terms while making others more prominent.
trod123
a year ago
The gist is by personalizing the content you see, and tailoring the distorted content results to push you in directions they want to amplify, or deamplify other directions.
Without getting too technical, the video link below covers the surface but this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Perception was broken back in the 50s, and there are many sophisticated ways today to manipulate perception. There is a lot of money in this.
rogerrogerr
a year ago
Wait, why is driving around making a list of WiFi APs (that people marked public during setup) a felony?
trod123
a year ago
Public SSIDs, MAC addresses, and locations are in an evolving grey area (to my knowledge, not an attorney) but they didn't do that.
They captured raw OTA radio traffic from all of their streetview cars, extracted information from the management frames (trilateration). Management frames were not protected at the time, and they made this collected information freely accessible through their map API publicly (for a time).
The gist being it met the legal requirements for wiretapping, they were fined and told to destroy the data. They may have done something similar with cell signals as well (though its unclear).
You can read more about it in the public records of the case.
rogerrogerr
a year ago
Thanks, I didn’t realize they’d done it this way. Seems pretty clever, but does also seem like strict wiretapping.