Israel was told 'you are not alone' – but year of war has left it isolated

5 pointsposted 8 hours ago
by prmph

10 Comments

myth_drannon

5 hours ago

But Israel was always alone to fend for itself. When it destroyed Iraqi nuclear plant, Americans were mad. Years later they thanked Israel. Same with Syrian nuclear plant. In 1973 Yom Kippur war when Israel was surprised in multi front attack and run out of munitions, all cowardly European nations refused to American resupply planes to land for re-fuel fearing backlash from oil rich Arab nation (the embargo still came). As it was said by someone before, Europeans like to pity the Jew but hate the Jew who fights back.

aguaviva

3 hours ago

All European nations refused to American resupply planes to land for re-fuel fearing backlash from oil rich Arab nations (the embargo still came).

This is simply false. Israel got help from several European countries in this regard.

Salazar's Portugal was happy to help and famously lent the US a base on the Azores. This ended up being a mammoth operation that would land up to 30 planes daily saw the base's population grow to some 1300 people. The Greek junta also allowed use of its communication facilities and the use of an airport near Athens. The Netherlands also secretly landed a smaller number of planes, in addition to providing substantial material (munitions, parts) and political support.

Britain and other countries had other reasons for being reluctant to support Israel at the time, besides the oil issue -- most chiefly its refusal to return to 1967 borders. So in that sense, it was Israel's arrogance and contempt for international law in the aftermath of that conflict which ended up endangering its own security.

tovej

8 hours ago

Israels actions _should_ be condemned, and the western world should be politically able to sanction Israel for its war crimes, otherwise we are simply pretending to value liberal democracy and international law. At the moment, Israel is somehow excluded from regular diplomatic processes (e.g. the U.S. govt. failing to act on actionable reports from itself: https://newrepublic.com/post/186305/antony-blinken-congress-...)

If Israel continues to have de-facto diplomatic immunity, this situation risks accelerating the deterioration of social peace across the western world.

jfengel

5 hours ago

I do not like the way Israel has carried out its war in Gaza. The Netanyahu government is literally criminal, and has been for a long time.

But there is no action that Israel could have taken in Gaza that would not have attracted international condemnation. Hamas has always used civilian locations for attacks. Even a much less monstrous Israeli government was going to result in a lot of civilian casualties. And, to be blunt, the knee-jerk antisemitism in a lot of the world would end up with Israel receiving just about as much criticism -- fair and unfair -- as it is today.

Consider, instead, what might have happened if the UN had gotten together on October 8 and said, "This is horrific and will not be tolerated, but Israel must not retaliate. Instead, we will send in a multinational peacekeeping force, including Muslim and Arabic countries. They will prevent future attacks, bring the responsible leadership to justice in an international court, and re-establish democratic elections in Gaza."

I do not doubt that the Netanyahu government would have balked. Maybe the Americans could have forced them to accept it. Maybe Israel would have gone on anyway.

Instead, we reinforced the reasons why Netanyahu got elected in the first place. Israelis are convinced that they're going to be under attack, and the world will clutch its pearls, do nothing, and promptly forget that anything ever happened. And then set about roundly condemning the Israelis regardless of what they do to prevent a recurrence.

That "deterioration of social peace" is not solely Israel's fault. And blaming it on Israel right now -- on the anniversary of the attacks that started this -- demonstrates why that peace is deteriorating. They are not safe and the world does not care, and they will respond.

With any luck Israel will democratically throw out the Netanyahu government and replace it with somebody who is in some kind of position to settle this. That's going to surely involve removing the West Bank settlements that are being built right now -- a crime of which Israel is guilty. But Gaza is going to remain a horrific danger, and no Israeli government can solve that. Only getting the rest of the world involved will ever make that any better.

tovej

4 hours ago

This is a cute "moderate" description of the situation if you ignore all history leading up to October 7th and the massive number of Palestinian civilians Israel has murdered and displaced. The year leading up to October 7th was already one of the deadliest recent years for Palestinians in both the weat bank and Gaza.

The main problem has always been Israel forcefully occupying the Palestinians indigenous land while denying them their humanity.

Israel can never be in the right until it acknowledges some form of Palestinian sovereignty.

jfengel

3 hours ago

And you're giving a cute "moderate" description that ignores all of the Israeli civilians murdered by Palestinians. That didn't start on October 7.

I don't think it's meaningful to trace back vengeances back through the English to the Ottomans and further. I'm only interested in what we do from here.

I don't think abolishing the state of Israel is worth discussing. And I don't think it's going to be feasible to find a solution while there is still such a large contingent who insist on abolishing Israel. That was literally part of Hamas' constitution until recently, and nobody seriously believes that they've changed their attitude despite a change in language.

I believe that "some form of Palestinian sovereignty" would be a recognized nation on the West Bank (and including Gaza, despite the logistical challenges). And from there, the two states could look into normalizing relations.

Unfortunately, hard liners on both sides hate that solution. Israel, at least, might vote out its hardliners. Fatah on the West Bank has actually been doing pretty well, and it's infuriating that Israeli hard liners stand in the way of making them a sovereign country. Some nations are starting to recognize them despite that, and I hope more do.

prmph

7 hours ago

What Israel is showing all (intentionally or not) is that there was no real rules-based world order, although there was probably a convention-based one. Before you condemn Israel, note that:

- The Arab nations in conflict with Israel are cesspools of horrible oppression, and yet this situation has become normalized to the extent that virtually no one bats an eyelid. You certainly don't hear of UN resolutions calling for a stop to the murder of dissident and women deemed as acting impurely.

- The West does business with nations that engage in what Israel is accused of, with far less justification. For example, until recently Russia was a major gas supplier to Europe. Saudi Arabia provides a lot of the world's oil. China is still the worlds factory, despite a history of brutal responses to activities seeking freedom, oppression of the Uighurs, etc.

- The ill-advised (and probably criminal) actions of the western countries in Iraq, and later with the Arab spring, led to the death of 100s of thousands of people.

There are many other examples of double standards all over the world.

So there was never a rules-based world order; there was a convention-based one, a state of affairs that everyone was content to let be, and that has now started to unravel. Israel's actions are an acknowledgement of this fact, and not in any way what is causing it. Fixating on Israel misses the shifting geo-political winds that are blowing.

tovej

6 hours ago

Oh, I'm well aware there never was one, it's just particularily egregious how badly western leaders are trying to pretend there is one and that they are in the right.

I would prefer if they just took the mask off and said directly that they want to project power and gain access to natural resources through force. That's an honest position that the public should get to hear.

wslh

8 hours ago

Leaving aside political and war flames, I believe in an era dominated by real-time social media and zillions of posts, we're overly focused on the nanoseconds of events rather than decades or centuries. Actions that may appear one way in the moment could be interpreted very differently when viewed across a longer timespan.

user

8 hours ago

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