austin-cheney
9 months ago
There is no paradox as the article describes. Psychology already knows effort from initiative is the result of conscientiousness. They just don’t know how to measure it.
What they do know is that higher conscientiousness is inherently good up to a point. Extreme conscientiousness is associated OCD type anxiety disorders. Low conscientiousness is inherently bad, so much so that it’s the primary characteristic of any number of disorders such as ADHD and autism. Conscientiousness is also negatively correlated to intelligence at around -0.27.
That being said some people will always avoid effort no matter how immediately associated that effort connects to a goal while other people find joy in an effort merely for the sake of their own industriousness. Although psychology is greatly challenged to associate any form of metric to observable efforts necessary to measure it psychology can still readily identify it.
I can also prove and demonstrate how conscientiousness relates to programming. For example many JavaScript developers cannot write the instructions to navigate a tree model, such as file system or DOM. The effort is just too great and they cannot do it even with years of programming experience. I can take a much less intelligent military soldier with no prior programming experience and teach them to master this skill within four hours of education, and their corresponding output will be vastly superior to that of the experienced programmer who cannot perform that sort of navigational effort. There is no paradox to any of this.
lukeasrodgers
9 months ago
“Conscientiousness is also negatively correlated to intelligence at around -0.27”
Do you have a citation that supports that claim without qualifiers?
I recently reviewed a bunch of the literature on this topic and it seems like the jury is very much still out, in some cases there is a negative correlation, in others positive, in others none at all.
ulnarkressty
9 months ago
Could it be an acquired trait? Most 'smart kids' don't need to put in the work to learn (and that's mostly all the work there is for most kids) until they hit college.
austin-cheney
9 months ago
Conscientiousness is something that can be learned and is socially reinforced through your social reference groups. It is one of the bedrocks of professional growth alongside technical prowess and social mastery. This is very evident in the military.
austin-cheney
9 months ago
I don’t have any citations off hand. I just remember seeing the numbers -0.24 and -0.27 in multiple publications.
hnthrow501
9 months ago
>I can also prove and demonstrate how conscientiousness relates to programming. For example many JavaScript developers cannot write the instructions to navigate a tree model, such as file system or DOM. The effort is just too great and they cannot do it even with years of programming experience. I can take a much less intelligent military soldier with no prior programming experience and teach them to master this skill within four hours of education, and their corresponding output will be vastly superior to that of the experienced programmer who cannot perform that sort of navigational effort. There is no paradox to any of this.
Do you have any resources on this? I have adhd and I have difficulties in these areas.
austin-cheney
9 months ago
Unfortunately I have no resources on this. Several years ago I thought I knew what ADHD and autism were, but I was so very wrong. It took a person with such traits moving into my house for me to really appreciate the extra effort required. One of my military colleagues also recently suggested I might be ADHD as well.
My best recommendation is to achieve familiarity through practice. That is your only hurdle. Once this becomes almost like muscle memory it will simply feel normal instead of feeling like extra effort. Once that feeling settles in you limits on this activity are gone.
I also recommend gamifying the experience to make the practice more enjoyable. Gamification can include seeing how fast you can get something to execute or seeing new areas of expressiveness or flexibility you can achieve that are more challenging in other ways.
setengetilion
9 months ago
On what you said about thinking you knew about adhd and autism, it brings to mind how I thought about this, how many times, things have all of us perceived something, anything to be real and true, how many of those things have we truly been wrong about what's really been going on. I think we're probably wrong a huge percentage of what we perceive to be what's really going on here
hnthrow501
9 months ago
>I can take a much less intelligent military soldier with no prior programming experience and teach them to master this skill within four hours of education, and their corresponding output will be vastly superior to that of the experienced programmer who cannot perform that sort of navigational effort.
I didn't express myself well. Are there any specific exercises or concepts I should focus on? I struggle with this too. This made me wonder what would I practice in 4 hours that would lead to such outcomes.
I recognize my difficulties and I have tried to find solutions.
Is your method similar to this? https://www.amazon.com/Processing-Recursively-Structured-Dat...
austin-cheney
9 months ago
Here is the learning path I took and it forever changed my understanding of programming in all aspects.
Way way back in the day when I was a JavaScript developer when jQuery was emerging into a cult I had already learned to "walk the DOM". I knew how to do it only because I learned XML and XML Schema before I learned to program in any language, but I wasn't good at it. When I say I "knew it" I really only mean I knew what the DOM methods were, what they returned, and how they could be used together. I had no concept of a vision of seeing everything working instantly in my head.
Because I knew how to do it and none of my available peers knew how I was promoted to a senior front end developer position and made the A/B test engineer for Travelocity. They had tried with jQuery but it always failed. jQuery executed too slowly, broke too frequently in IE. They also had to wait for jQuery to load into the page which took to long, it was the HTTP round trip not the execution of loading jQuery code, and the caused the experiments to render far too slowly. So they needed somebody who could interface with the DOM without jQuery and native querySelectors were not a thing yet.
If I wanted to keep this promotion I needed to write experiment code that just worked. I found the DOM, even in the days of IE8 and IE9, was ridiculously responsive. It was faster than doing some things directly in JavaScript. Through practice I realized that I could write extremely elaborate experiments that wildly mutated all aspects of a complex page and also experiments that spanned multiple pages. It always came down to only two skills: walking the DOM and timing to account for asynchronous things happening in the page. I solved for timing concerns using recursive setTimeout functions to watch for an a targeted state in some area of a page. I learned those skills through trial and effort. I just failed, failed, failed, and then something just worked. Eventually the things that just worked allowed me to do things other developers could not.
This changed forever how I perceived programming because now for me everything is either an instruction or a data structure. Data structures can be navigated, reasoned about, and mutated. Most developers seem to perceive data, like a web page, as something to be queried like using a search engine or writing SQL. You have to unlearn that by practicing a different approach. Beyond that I don't know what further guidance to tell you. It all comes down to practice, persistence, and motivation.
I have not read the book you linked to, but from the title alone it sounds similar to something i would recommend.
hnthrow501
9 months ago
Thank You. I really appreciate the advice.
I mistook you for austin henly on this website. This made me to think that you were teaching a formal approach to solving this class of problems / some kind of intuition on solving them.