quacked
6 hours ago
This trend could be fought against by doing away with the (in my opinion) absurd practice of constraining school English classes to "deeply analyze a few select texts at a very slow pace and then write essays on pre-selected topics", and changing the requirements to "read as many books as possible and write down your real thoughts about them."
Of course for the select few students at the very top, it may be important to drill deep analysis, but the bulk of the citizenry will be better served by developing a personal predisposition towards reading and writing freely [0], as opposed to having someone prod them through facsimiles of literary criticism for a few hundred hours every year.
[0] (Edit: changed from "... toward reading" to "... toward reading and writing freely". The original wording makes it sound like I want to advantage reading over writing.)
cbfrench
5 hours ago
When I was in high school, my English classes focused quite a bit on performing that sort of analysis. Then I majored in English at a college whose department was still very much aligned with the New Critical “close reading” methodology. Then I went to a PhD program in a top-ten department.
My experiences: My college experience prepared me very well to analyze texts—to understand their mechanics, to discuss the ways in which they develop meaning out of those mechanics, and to argue for an interpretation on the basis of that. What it did not prepare me to do well was to conduct literary research, which was the point of the PhD program. Nevertheless, most of my grad school professors valued my ability to conduct a close reading of a text because many other students who came from more research- and theory-oriented undergrad backgrounds had difficulty in explicating texts without resorting to extra-textual frameworks.
I ended up leaving the PhD program for various reasons, but I will say that the close-reading skills I developed in college have been widely applicable for me outside of academia. Close reading forces you to interact with a text at a granular level and to be attentive to the assumptions that it is smuggling in through its construction. Some lit folks now prefer to talk about “slow reading,” but it’s mostly the same thing.
I would argue that, given the deluge of text with which any of us is confronted on a daily basis, the ability to slow down and to be attentive to a text is a necessary interpretive skill. Maybe students don’t all need to learn to identify figures of speech and poetic devices, but they should learn how to sit with a text and analyze how it’s put together. For one thing, this makes them more sensitive and acute readers. For another, it ideally can make them clearer and more forceful writers. (It is no accident that many of the greatest canonical writers honed their skills by producing parodies of other great writers: the exercise requires getting into the mind and comprehending the style of another writer in order to understand the choices that (s)he has made.) Good reading is a prerequisite for good writing, and that is partly a function of reading widely, yes, but it is also a function of reading deeply.
Rather than jettisoning analytical approaches entirely, we might be better off teaching students how to read, in the sense of showing them that different texts require different levels and forms of engagement. (Insert here the Baconian adage about the different kinds of books.) Some texts can be skimmed simply to mine for information, while other texts require much more deliberate and analytical reading. Students should develop the skills to perform both kinds of reading. And then there’s also reading that isn’t done for a purpose other than sheer enjoyment, and that should be encouraged too (perhaps by having students, as you say, read some stuff just to share their responses to it). But I think a disservice is done when we treat reading as a univocal act, whether that means we make it all about analysis or all about generating responses to texts.
xhkkffbf
4 hours ago
THis is a nice defense of it. Why should we valorize the ability to plough through thousands of pages of a Russian novel? Is that any better than reading one paragraph closely? Some books are just too long.
simmonmt
6 hours ago
In my high school, English class existed to teach you to do two things - read books and write essays. No other class cared about both things (individually or separately). Kids need to do both, so emphasizing one over the other does them a disservice. TFA talks about the problems that result when you starve the reading side, and this post suggests (I think) starving the writing side (writing your "real thoughts" vs learning to structure them as an essay).
quacked
5 hours ago
I agree with you--reading and writing must both be done frequently. Ideally both are occurring constantly.
However, the problem with "learning to structure your thoughts in an essay" is that most schools teach one style of essay, which is a "baby thesis" (or a five-paragraph essay with in-text citations, written without use of the third person.) It's incredibly boring, and what's more it's not a convention that the majority of great essay writers in the past stuck to. Furthermore, the choice of subject matter is decided by the teacher, which means that there isn't any chance to develop your skills based on subject material that you actually care about. If the only exposure to essay writing that kids have is "mandatory topics on mandatory novels in a mandatory framework", it's highly unlikely that any but the top 5-20% will actually develop any real taste for reading and writing that persists into adulthood.
I would prefer to blow open the playing field and allow students to submit any kind of writing, including first-person and personal opinions, and then have the option to publish the essays centrally so they can read each others' work and respond, as occurs in adult society. The writing quality and volume should be mandatory, but the form and content should not.
Rinzler89
6 hours ago
>"read as many books as possible and write down your real thoughts about them."
What's gonna stop kids from just asking ChatGPT to do it for them so they can get back to doom scrolling social media or playing videogames?
If kids today have access to much higher quality (and addictive) entertainment than books, how are you gonna convince them to read anything?
quacked
5 hours ago
The only two things I can think of are handwritten essays and books that are more stimulating and interesting.
Normally, I'd prefer that young scholars read difficult, culturally relevant novels, and assume they'll read for fun on their own, but as this clearly isn't the case anymore I think that it's worth reworking middle and high school English curriculums to include modern books that are gripping and lurid, which is the only way that books can compete with the algorithm. I'd pick a kid reading 25 Halo novelizations over pretending to read The Great Gatsby and then returning to his phone.
gs17
2 hours ago
>handwritten essays
That would have to be done in class, with drafts, etc. Even pre-ChatGPT I knew people who rewrote essays they may or may not have written themselves, especially for teachers that demanded they be handwritten instead of typed. And it must be pretty old as a concept, 1955 Biff was doing it in Back to the Future.
AnimalMuppet
5 hours ago
At least have them read better books.
Why do high school kids need to be afflicted with Portrait Of The Artist As A Young Man? Is that going to make them want to read more? Or is it going to make them think that even the "best" books are pretentious drivel?
Does "great literature" have to be boring? Can't they find non-boring examples and read those?
gs17
2 hours ago
It's more about having choice IMO. You could see the downward trend of my interest in reading as it went from elementary school's "read whatever you want, as long as it has chapters" to high school's "read what we give you and repeat the themes we tell you". Some kids like the classics. I wanted something that entertained me.
quacked
5 hours ago
I agree with you. I think also that kids today, and possibly for the past 50 years, don't have enough of a real grasp of history, culture, and civilization to really appreciate the classic novels they're currently exposed to as part of the curriculum. As an example, I didn't realize Pride and Prejudice was hilarious until I was 26 and thinking of getting married. At 16 I refused to engage with it or any novels like it.
Given the current disaster brewing in terms of general literacy, I see no issue with bolstering the current curriculum with less-prestigious books that students actually find interesting. If that means kids are reading The Shining as part of high school, so be it.
orwin
5 hours ago
Shouldn't that depends on the age? I'm not north American, I think in middle school we had to do book reviews, of any book we wanted from a selection (often by themes: ucronia, utopia, dystopia, historical, epistolary... Or by style: classic, romantic, naturalist, modern...), then in highschool deep dive in specific chapters of a book, where we do a more stylistic study and, if the teacher is really good and the chosen book appropriate, we try to make the book contradict itself, without outside knowledge[0].
Seems like the best approach to me, but i'm partial.
[0] just realized my teacher was better than I thought she was, and we, like Mr Jourdain speaking in prose, deconstructed books without realising.
quacked
5 hours ago
Well, sure, I agree that it depends on both the age and the student, and of course as you say your location.
I think in this case it's important to remember that nearly everyone on this forum was a top 5-10% student. The "general literacy crisis" is not falling on commenters on HN or their children, but rather the children of the rest of society. What I believe we're seeing is a widening bifurcation between the intellectual "elite" and everyone else. As an example, I would be surprised if more than 50% of American adults can put all the major wars America has engaged in in order and to within a decade of their occurrence on a timeline. This makes me less confident in the modern approach of "book reviews transitioning into stylistic deep dives". I don't think continuing to hold onto that model will spark a general return to literacy among the American public.
My education was patterned similarly to yours: in middle school we could review any book that we wanted, and then in high school we did more deep dives and stylistic studies. I found this to be outrageously boring, and in retrospect I think it was a bad approach. As I see it, the problem is that although you can read whatever you want (at least in middle school), the style in which you respond is mandated to take on a certain "academic" style, and the dialogue is one-way between you and the teacher, who then assigns you a highly partial grade that doesn't actually communicate anything about your writing ability.
In adult society, especially in arenas where writing and publishing essays is common (like internet forums or archaic amateur discussion and study groups), you can write whatever you want, and your work is evaluated based on its merit and how well it delivers its point in a way that pleases or challenges the audience, rather than how well it adheres to a sterile model outlined by a central academic bureaucracy. I think this model is what the approach to writing education should be patterned around.
Here are two interesting essays about this exact topic:
orwin
3 hours ago
Ah, but you see, i think constraints are the best way to improve. Finding ways around them is the easiest way to be interesting. That's why, while i'm not at all against homeschooling _if_ parents are really present and active, "unschooling" is to me the best way to educate an uninteresting, boring person.
austin-cheney
6 hours ago
Or by eliminating the Chromebooks at school and actually requiring students to carry physical books. I don't just mean textbooks. I mean hand carrying novels. Its one thing to theoretically know what a book is because you have seen one once or twice on a television show, but its a world of difference to actually hold one in your hands with pages that give way to the depth and length of the reading.
user
5 hours ago